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Old 06-19-2010, 05:28 PM
 
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In Jude we read that the the citizens of Sodom and the cities of the plain suffered the vengeance of eternal fire, as example -warning- to those who after would do such things as the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorra and the cities of the plain did do.

Gen 14:7 And they returned, and came to עין משפט `Eyn [sight/fountain] Mishpat [fromvindicate, punish=judgement], which [is] Kadesh, and smote all the country of the Amalekites, and also the Amorites, that dwelt in Hazezontamar. קדש Qadesh
Genesis 14:7 Greek to English Brenton translation:
And having turned back they came to the well of judgment; this is Cades, and they cut in pieces all the princes of Amalec, and the Amorites dwelling in Asasonthamar.

My NET copy of the Septuagint translates it "And after they had turned back, they turned to the spring of judgment (that is Kades).
Now the ק is the same English sound as hard "h" and "K".
The Vulgate translates it with a hard "C" "Cades".

Jude tells us, then, that vengeance of the eternal fire is the judgment that the sodomites and the chained angels suffer, as warnings to others not to do the same and so, suffer the same fate, in the end, as the warning shows will come to all who do such things.
Gen 19:24 Then YHWH rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from YHWH out of heaven;
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Old 06-19-2010, 05:38 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,387,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
In Jude we read that the the citizens of Sodom and the cities of the plain suffered the vengeance of eternal fire, as example -warning- to those who after would do such things as the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorra and the cities of the plain did do.

Gen 14:7 And they returned, and came to עין משפט `Eyn [sight/fountain] Mishpat [fromvindicate, punish=judgement], which [is] Kadesh, and smote all the country of the Amalekites, and also the Amorites, that dwelt in Hazezontamar. קדש Qadesh
Genesis 14:7 Greek to English Brenton translation:
And having turned back they came to the well of judgment; this is Cades, and they cut in pieces all the princes of Amalec, and the Amorites dwelling in Asasonthamar.

My NET copy of the Septuagint translates it "And after they had turned back, they turned to the spring of judgment (that is Kades).
Now the ק is the same English sound as hard "h" and "K".
The Vulgate translates it with a hard "C" "Cades".

Jude tells us, then, that vengeance of the eternal fire is the judgment that the sodomites and the chained angels suffer, as warnings to others not to do the same and so, suffer the same fate, in the end, as the warning shows will come to all who do such things.
Gen 19:24 Then YHWH rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from YHWH out of heaven;
God IS the eternal fire! When will Sodom be restored? There are prophecies (scripture) of such things.......

When did God reconcile things in the heavens? Is he going to? Are we involved?

Colossians 1:20: And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Reconciliation in the Heavens

From the link above. J. Preston Eby.

Ah, I long intently for that day when even the devil himself shall put away his pitchfork, hang up his horns, and come humbly and brokenly to the Father's house! Does that startle you? How else could it be in that glad day when the Christ has finally reconciled all things in heaven and in earth, including all the principalities and powers of the heavenly sphere!

Last edited by herefornow; 06-19-2010 at 05:50 PM..
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Old 06-19-2010, 07:26 PM
 
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The point:
The Example of the Vengeance of the eternal Fire, the sight of judgment, is called Hades, after the fires of Hades, and that comes to be a Hebrew Word, after all!
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Old 06-19-2010, 07:43 PM
 
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
The point:
The Example of the Vengeance of the eternal Fire, the sight of judgment, is called Hades, after the fires of Hades, and that comes to be a Hebrew Word, after all!
Sheol/Hades is the common grave and has nothing to do with fire EXCEPT in one parable told by Jesus. Greek myths about the underworld (Hades) have nothing to do with scripture.

Death and Sheol are cast into the lake of fire. This picture symbolizes the end of death's power which (in turn) is symbolized by the grave.
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Old 06-19-2010, 07:45 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
The point:
The Example of the Vengeance of the eternal Fire, the sight of judgment, is called Hades, after the fires of Hades, and that comes to be a Hebrew Word, after all!

The OLD TESTAMENT has attached no such meaning to the mythological Greek word Hades.

Sheol is the GRAVE; death, dust, etc. I can produce verse after verse for you from SCRIPTURE if you would like. And, remember, the prophets and writers of the Old Testament used VERY flowery language. I don't doubt that some of what goes on in the Old Testament is literal, but the verses that speak of death and the afterlife CANNOT logically be literal.

The ONLY place in the ENTIRE Bible (which consists of THOUSANDS of verses) where there is talk of a PHYSICAL, CONSCIOUS afterlife is the PARABLE of Lazarus and the Rich Man. It is a rather fascinating parable, at that.
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Old 06-19-2010, 08:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
The point:
The Example of the Vengeance of the eternal Fire, the sight of judgment, is called Hades, after the fires of Hades, and that comes to be a Hebrew Word, about the vengeance of the eternal fire, after all!
Greek is from Hebrew, as all tongues are, confounded at Babel to the seventy which spread out like trees. the OP shows that Hades is a Hebrew word, from long before the Greeks even rose up as anything more than a small shepherd tribe.
Moses wrote Genesis 14, and the people of the land were already calling the place of judgement/vengeance on Sodom and the cities, "Hades", as a sign of what happened there, forever visible..
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Old 06-20-2010, 03:49 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Ezekiel 16 states that Sodom and Gommorra will be restored, even if your thesis would be right, that Hades originates from Qadesh, there is not the slightest hint that is either a place of a conscious or an endless punishment

the early idea of Hades in Greek mythology was not so much a fiery but rather a dark and silent place where all the dead went as far as I know, Greek Hades was not medieval Hell

it is true that Kades (kadÍs) the Greek transliteration of Qadesh has a significant similarity to Hades (adÍs), but this does not mean that Greek Hades etymologically derived from Qadesh, some say Hades derived from aidÍs, unseen, just as hell originally meant what is hidden, according to Strong's Qadesh means holy

Last edited by svenM; 06-20-2010 at 03:57 AM..
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Old 06-20-2010, 06:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
Ezekiel 16 states that Sodom and Gommorra will be restored, even if your thesis would be right, that Hades originates from Qadesh, there is not the slightest hint that is either a place of a conscious or an endless punishment

the early idea of Hades in Greek mythology was not so much a fiery but rather a dark and silent place where all the dead went as far as I know, Greek Hades was not medieval Hell

it is true that Kades (kadÍs) the Greek transliteration of Qadesh has a significant similarity to Hades (adÍs), but this does not mean that Greek Hades etymologically derived from Qadesh, some say Hades derived from aidÍs, unseen, just as hell originally meant what is hidden, according to Strong's Qadesh means holy
Actually, in the etymology of qadesh -hades, the word meant male prostitute. The place came to be called hades after the destruction of Sodom, and is translated as "Sodomite" 5 times in the AV, and "unclean" 1 time. But the point of it becoming the name they called what the "fountain of judgment", or the place where the judgment was "seen" [by what was left] is the point that Jude makes in calling it "... the vengeance of eternal fire". Hades, then, in the place name in Sodom, after the judgment, came to mean the fire of eternal wrath.

Ezekiel makes no such promise of restoring Sodom as a city, or as a people from the destroyed, nuked with fire and brimstone to salt waste, land of their destruction.
Now the salt sea will be healed, but there will be no inhabitants of ancient Sodom reincarnated and nearby, to spread their nets. -Ezekiel 47

Last edited by yeshuasavedme; 06-20-2010 at 06:46 PM..
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Old 06-21-2010, 05:16 AM
 
Location: Germany
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some say the salt sea is the very 'lake of fire' spoken of in John's revelation

see here (it also makes references to the book of Enoch):

Where Is the Lake of Fire?
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Old 06-21-2010, 09:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by svenM View Post
some say the salt sea is the very 'lake of fire' spoken of in John's revelation

see here (it also makes references to the book of Enoch):
Here-say is "heresy".

The Lake of Fire John spoke of was seen by Eaoch, with no heaven above nor firmly founded earth beneath, "outdide" the realm of creation's "ordered, formed elements",.
A Place of of fire, not salt.

1 Enoch 90:
23"And behold they were all bound, I saw, and they all stood before Him. 24And the judgement was held first over the stars, and they were judged and found guilty, and went to the place of condemnation, and they were cast into an abyss, full of fire and flaming, and full of pillars of fire. 25And those seventy shepherds were judged and found guilty, and they were cast into that fiery abyss.

Quote:
21:7And from thence I went to another place, which was still more horrible than the former, and I saw a horrible thing: a great fire there which burnt and blazed, and the place was cleft as far as the abyss, being full of great descending columns of fire: neither its extent or magnitude could I see, nor could I conjecture.
8Then I said: "How fearful is the place and how terrible to look upon!"
9Then Uriel answered me, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: "Enoch, why hast thou such fear and affright?"
And I answered: "Because of this fearful place, and because of the spectacle of the pain."
10And he said unto me: "This place is the prison of the angels, and here they will be imprisoned for ever."
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