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Old 06-20-2010, 09:08 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,640 posts, read 30,249,870 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
All who are born into the world are already under eternal condemnation. The only way to cancel that, is to believe in Christ for salvation. Those who die without Christ remain eternally condemned.

John 3:16 'For God so loved the world that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. And there is the good news.
Great posts Mike! I'm not surprised that some are trying discredit you, count that as a compliment. Remember how Jesus was treated for preaching the truth. God Bless you my friend!
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:11 PM
 
Location: New England
32,225 posts, read 21,107,899 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
All who are born into the world are already under eternal condemnation. .
Where does it say this in the scriptures ?
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:13 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,771,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
As even the casual reader will notice, when the truth is presented, it brings out into the open, those who oppose it. This is the way of things in the devil's world.
Even the casual reader? The truth is, the lake of fire is not a literal fire of eternal torment. "For our God is a consuming fire."
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,671,040 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Jesus Christ warned about the lake of fire. Take it up with Him.
Where is a warning about the lake of fire from Jesus? I missed that!
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,671,040 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
All who are born into the world are already under eternal condemnation. The only way to cancel that, is to believe in Christ for salvation. Those who die without Christ remain eternally condemned.

John 3:16 'For God so loved the world that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. And there is the good news.
Funny you should bring that up.... You still have yet to rebut:
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. (Rom. 5:18)

And you have failed to produce evidence that condemnation=burning in hell.

Perhaps you will grace your readers with more information as to why Romans contradicts what you say about condemnation?
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,491,032 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
Great posts Mike! I'm not surprised that some are trying discredit you, count that as a compliment. Remember how Jesus was treated for preaching the truth. God Bless you my friend!


ILoveNorthCarolina,

Mike, on a pretty consistent basis, tries to discredit us whenever we post scripture refuting him. Should we take that as a compliment? Maybe I should, now that I think about it.
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:41 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,640 posts, read 30,249,870 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
ILoveNorthCarolina,

Mike, on a pretty consistent basis, tries to discredit us whenever we post scripture refuting him. Should we take that as a compliment? Maybe I should, now that I think about it.
You should rethink the Scripture he quotes to you and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to you.
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:42 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,671,040 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Some who promote Universalism make attempts to discredit the reality of the lake of fire. Some will say that eternal torment isn't found in the original lanquages. They will then go the King James Translation and refer to the fact that the King James translates three different words all as 'hell'.

Those words are Tartarus, Sheol/hades, and Gehenna.

Here is what those words refer to in the original languages.

1.) Tartarus: In the Greek - Tartaroo. It is found only once in the New Testament. In 2 Peter 2:4.,
The above is true.

Quote:
It is a prison for a certain group of fallen angels who were involved in the Genesis 6 incident in which these particular angels infiltrated the human race, and having intercourse with human females, gave rise to the Nephilim. 2 Peter 2:4 'For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

Tartarus is probably another compartment of Hades. If so, it would be the lowest level of Hades. Tartarus is also referred to in Jude 6, though not by name. 'And the angels which kept not their fiest estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day'. Tartarus is a temporary prison for these angels until God is ready to throw them permanently into the lake of fire.
The above is not found in the bible but pure speculation... none of these extra things are found outside of the mind of the poster.

Quote:
Tartarus is reserved for those aforementioned angels. There are no human beings in Tartarus.
Seems to be so.

Quote:
The demons which are still operational upon the earth today are aware of the eternal punishment that awaits them. Matthew 8:29 And behold, they cried out, saying, ''What do we have to with you, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time''?
Not sure what that has to do with anything you just posted above....

Quote:
2.) Sheol/Hades It is known as Sheol in the Hebrew, and Hades in the Greek. Sheol is not the grave. The King James translators rendered Sheol/hades as the grave, but it is not.
AHHHH so it is YOU who say the KJV is wrong not the Universalists! I see!

Quote:
The Greek word for grave or tomb is Kever. And the grave or tomb, and burial, is clearly referred to in the following passages. Isa 14:19; 2 Kings 23:16; Ex 14:11; Gen 15:15; 23:4, 6, 9, 20; 49:30, 31; 50:13; Psa 88:11.

The Greek word for the grave is Mnemeion and is used in passages such as Matt 27:60 and John 11:17.
This is true but doesn't affect what Hades means. Just like using grave doesn't mean that tomb is not correct either.

Quote:
Nor does Hades mean death. The Greek word for death is Thanatos and is used together with Hades in Rev 1:18 and can't be seen as being synomymous. '...I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
I would agree with that too.

Quote:
Sheol means 'The place of departed spirits.' Sheol/hades was the abode of the spirits of the dead.
Yes this is true. The departed spirits (not souls) were unseen and therefore no one REALLY knew where they went so from a human perspective they supposed there was a place for them... but reality shows that the unseen is just that... mysterious.

Quote:
Before the resurrection of Christ, both believers and unbelievers went to Sheol/hades. Unbelievers still go there.
None of which is stated in the bible... just your opinion....

Quote:
1) The soul (no longer for the believer, but still true for the unbeliever) goes to Hades. Acts 2:27 BECAUSE THOU WILT NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES...

2) The inhabitants of Sheol are conscious. Ezek32:21 ''The strong among the mighty ones shall speak of him and his helpers from the midst of Sheol, They have gone down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.'

3) Sheol is said to be in the lower parts of the earth. Eph4:9 (Now this expression, ''He ascended,'' what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? [10] He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) It's worth noting here that the body of Jesus was placed in a tomb which was on the surface of the earth. Tombs and graves are never said to be in the lower parts of the earth. Other passages that speak of Sheol/Hades as being 'down' and in 'the lower parts of the earth.' Gen 37:35; Job 11:8; Isa 44:23; 57:9; Ezek 26:20; Amos 9:2; Matt 11:23; Luke 10:15.

4) In Sheol, a person was reunited with his people. Gen15:15; 25:8; 35:29; 37:35; 49:33; Num 20:24, 28; 31:2; Deut 32:50; 34:5; 2 Sam 12:23.

5) Sheol has divisions. Deut 32:22 'For a fire is kindled in My anger, And burns to the lowest part of Sheol...

6) In figurative language, Sheol is said to have gates. Isa 38:10.

7) Unbelievers experience Gods judgment in Sheol.
a) Gods anger: Deut. 32:22
b) Writhing in pain: Job 26:5 The Hebrew word is Chool and means to travail, to twist and turn in pain like a woman giving birth.
c) Distress and sorrow: Psa 116:3; 118:5
Primitive human concepts of the unseen.... and most of which you have taken out of context! Ever heard of figurative language? Lowest parts and lifted up are spiritual phrases used often in the bible. None of which indicate any division...

Quote:
Once resurrected out of Sheol/Hades, the unbeliever is cast bodily into the lake of fire where he experiences disgrace and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:2; John 5:28,29; Acts 24:15.
Again not one of those passages ACTUALLY say that.. you interpret it that way, erroneously!

Quote:
3)The eternal hell is 'Gehenna' or 'Tophet' or 'the lake of fire.' Gehenna was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where children had once been offered up to Molech, bodies were dumped and burned there and the fires never went out. Jesus used the term 'Gehenna' to illustrate to horrors of the lake of fire in a way which his audience would understand.
WAS? Gehenna is still there. Not only that but you make a connection between Gehenna and the "horrors of the lake of fire" without any cause.. Why don't you show us the connection in scripture?

Quote:
Gehenna or the lake of fire
And now you try to make it seem as if they are interchangeable without anything to back that up! Interesting....
Quote:
is the final destination of the unbeliever. After unbelievers are raised out of Hades and judged at the Great White Throne, according to their works, they are sent to their final punishment Rev 20:11-15. They will share the lake of fire with the devil and his angels for whom the eternal fire has been prepared.
Didn't you say above that Tartarus is the place for angels?

Quote:
The word destroy is Apollumi and does not mean cessation of existence, but rather it carries the meaning of utter ruination and eternal uselessness.
Yep... Apollumi certainly does and is used as "lost" here by Jesus himself:
"For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost." (Luke 19:10)
So really you are contradiction Jesus who says he came to save the destroyed but you say Jesus will leave them in their lost or destroyed state? Do we believe Jesus or you?

Quote:
It is used by Jesus in Matt 10:24 to describe the condition of the unbeliever in the lake of fire. Eternal torment in utter ruin and uselessness, and hopelessness. That is what awaits those who depart from this life without having accepted God's offer of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.
Again using lake of fire and Gehenna interchangeably when there is nothing to warrant that (that you have shown anyway).

So Jesus DIDN'T come to seek and save the destroyed? Why would he say that if he didn't intend to actually seek and save them but leave them to be tortured in the horrors of the lake of fire?

So many contradictions... so little time!

Last edited by katjonjj; 06-20-2010 at 10:07 PM.. Reason: fixed quote problem
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:51 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,771,226 times
Reputation: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
The above is true.

The above is not found in the bible but pure speculation... none of these extra things are found outside of the mind of the poster.

Seems to be so.

Not sure what that has to do with anything you just posted above....

AHHHH so it is YOU who say the KJV is wrong not the Universalists! I see!

This is true but doesn't affect what Hades means. Just like using grave doesn't mean that tomb is not correct either.


I would agree with that too.


Yes this is true. The departed spirits (not souls) were unseen and therefore no one REALLY knew where they went so from a human perspective they supposed there was a place for them... but reality shows that the unseen is just that... mysterious.

None of which is stated in the bible... just your opinion....

Primitive human concepts of the unseen.... and most of which you have taken out of context! Ever heard of figurative language? Lowest parts and lifted up are spiritual phrases used often in the bible. None of which indicate any division...

Again not one of those passages ACTUALLY say that.. you interpret it that way, erroneously!


WAS? Gehenna is still there. Not only that but you make a connection between Gehenna and the "horrors of the lake of fire" without any cause.. Why don't you show us the connection in scripture?


And now you try to make it seem as if they are interchangeable without anything to back that up! Interesting....

Didn't you say above that Tartarus is the place for angels?


Yep... Apollumi certainly does and is used as "lost" here by Jesus himself:
"For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost." (Luke 19:10)
So really you are contradiction Jesus who says he came to save the destroyed but you say Jesus will leave them in their lost or destroyed state? Do we believe Jesus or you?

Again using lake of fire and Gehenna interchangeably when there is nothing to warrant that (that you have shown anyway).

So Jesus DIDN'T come to seek and save the destroyed? Why would he say that if he didn't intend to actually seek and save them but leave them to be tortured in the horrors of the lake of fire?

So many contradictions... so little time!
Great post, Kat!
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:55 PM
 
21,857 posts, read 16,691,085 times
Reputation: 8681
Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
Great posts Mike! I'm not surprised that some are trying discredit you, count that as a compliment. Remember how Jesus was treated for preaching the truth. God Bless you my friend!
Thanks ILNC!!! Yes, it is a compliment. I was beginning to forget that. Thanks for reminding me. I appreciate it. God bless you as well.
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