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Old 06-20-2010, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,668,211 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
ILoveNorthCarolina,

Mike, on a pretty consistent basis, tries to discredit us whenever we post scripture refuting him. Should we take that as a compliment? Maybe I should, now that I think about it.
Yes... since we are so persecuted on this forum and others, Universalists should find that comforting! It is so encouraging to know that if other disagree and sling mud at us then we are doing the right thing....
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Old 06-20-2010, 10:23 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
4,230 posts, read 651,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yes... since we are so persecuted on this forum and others, Universalists should find that comforting! It is so encouraging to know that if other disagree and sling mud at us then we are doing the right thing....
laughing .... yes it seems to be the belief that because Jesus said 'you will be persecuted' to his disciples that were in front of him, that if people disagree with their doctrines that it must mean that their doctrines are correct because people disagree ( persecute them)
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Old 06-20-2010, 10:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,668,211 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
laughing .... yes it seems to be the belief that because Jesus said 'you will be persecuted' to his disciples that were in front of him, that if people disagree with their doctrines that it must mean that their doctrines are correct because people disagree ( persecute them)

Yes.. it seems that if more than one gather together to oppose a doctrine then that doctrine is correct and true!

On the other hand... I think those Jesus was speaking to... WERE ACTUALLY PERSECUTED physically to death!

David Koresh was disagreed with by thousands upon thousands of people.... guess he had the truth too.
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Old 06-20-2010, 11:03 PM
 
21,824 posts, read 16,678,731 times
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Originally Posted by Mike555
All who are born into the world are already under eternal condemnation. .


Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Where does it say this in the scriptures ?
John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not judged (condemned); he who does not believe has been judged (condemned) already; because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24 ''Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life..

Romans 8:1 'There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.' No one is in Christ Jesus until they believe in Him as is seen in John 3:18 and John 5:24.

Because all men in Adam are born already condemned-under the penalty of sin which is spiritual death-separation from God, Jesus had to come into the world through a virgin birth to avoid being born under Adam's curse.

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides (remains) on Him.

John 10:24 ''I said therefore to you,that you shall die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.'' Under condemnation.

Everyone is born already under the penalty of sin which is spiritual death. Everyone is already eternally condemned from the moment of physical birth, and remains so until and unless they believe in Christ for salvation.

Romans 5:12 'Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.' Until you believe in Christ for salvation, you remain under the penalty of sin. You remain condemned.
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Old 06-20-2010, 11:13 PM
 
21,824 posts, read 16,678,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Funny you should bring that up.... You still have yet to rebut:
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. (Rom. 5:18)

And you have failed to produce evidence that condemnation=burning in hell.
Readers may refer to Matthew 25:41,46; 1Thess 1:9; Rev. 20:10; Rev 20:15.


Quote:
Perhaps you will grace your readers with more information as to why Romans contradicts what you say about condemnation?
Readers may refer to post #24.
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Old 06-20-2010, 11:26 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,489,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
You should rethink the Scripture he quotes to you and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to you.
I HAVE. I have been through YEARS of struggle and study!! Years! I am finally understanding the love of God for the first time in my miserable life! I'm the kind of person that wants every "I" dotted and every "T" crossed before I say anything.

And there is a reason Mike won't reply to my last post in his other thread. He has NO scripture to refute what I said. Re-read my post. I promise you with evey last cell in my body, I do not take this lightly. I'm studying like a mad-woman.
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Old 06-21-2010, 01:23 AM
 
21,824 posts, read 16,678,731 times
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I hope the way I formatted this post isn't confusing. I was trying to get my reply to katjonjj's reply to my original post all together. These are her replies from post #18.

[quote=katjonjj;14702274]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555



Quote:
It is a prison for a certain group of fallen angels who were involved in the Genesis 6 incident in which these particular angels infiltrated the human race, and having intercourse with human females, gave rise to the Nephilim. 2 Peter 2:4 'For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

Tartarus is probably another compartment of Hades. If so, it would be the lowest level of Hades. Tartarus is also referred to in Jude 6, though not by name. 'And the angels which kept not their fiest estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day'. Tartarus is a temporary prison for these angels until God is ready to throw them permanently into the lake of fire.

Quote:
Katjonjj
The above is not found in the bible but pure speculation... none of these extra things are found outside of the mind of the poster.
The poster says that Gen 6, Jude 6, and 2 Peter 2:4 are not found in the Bible. Discerning readers will read the listed passages and relate them to each other.


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The demons which are still operational upon the earth today are aware of the eternal punishment that awaits them. Matthew 8:29 And behold, they cried out, saying, ''What do we have to with you, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time''?
Quote:
Katjonjj
Not sure what that has to do with anything you just posted above....
The demons who are still free to function in the angelic conflict know that their time is coming when they will face their final imprisonment at which time they will be tormented.



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The Greek word for grave or tomb is Kever. And the grave or tomb, and burial, is clearly referred to in the following passages. Isa 14:19; 2 Kings 23:16; Ex 14:11; Gen 15:15; 23:4, 6, 9, 20; 49:30, 31; 50:13; Psa 88:11.

The Greek word for the grave is Mnemeion and is used in passages such as Matt 27:60 and John 11:17.
Quote:
Katjonjj
This is true but doesn't affect what Hades means. Just like using grave doesn't mean that tomb is not correct either.
I have shown that Hades and the grave are not the same thing. This is easily discerned by reading the entire post and the scriptures given.

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Before the resurrection of Christ, both believers and unbelievers went to Sheol/hades. Unbelievers still go there.
Quote:
Katjonjj
None of which is stated in the bible... just your opinion....
Luke 16:19-31. The story of Lazarus and the rich man was a story told by Jesus to illustrate the reality of Hades. At that time in history, before Jesus was resurrected, both believers and unbelievers went to Hades. Believers went to the Paradise side, and unbelievers went to the 'Torments' side of Hades. Again, one need only look at the passages on the post to see that both believers and unbelievers went to Hades at that time in history.

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1) The soul (no longer for the believer, but still true for the unbeliever) goes to Hades. Acts 2:27 BECAUSE THOU WILT NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES...

2) The inhabitants of Sheol are conscious. Ezek32:21 ''The strong among the mighty ones shall speak of him and his helpers from the midst of Sheol, They have gone down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.'

3) Sheol is said to be in the lower parts of the earth. Eph4:9 (Now this expression, ''He ascended,'' what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? [10] He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) It's worth noting here that the body of Jesus was placed in a tomb which was on the surface of the earth. Tombs and graves are never said to be in the lower parts of the earth. Other passages that speak of Sheol/Hades as being 'down' and in 'the lower parts of the earth.' Gen 37:35; Job 11:8; Isa 44:23; 57:9; Ezek 26:20; Amos 9:2; Matt 11:23; Luke 10:15.

4) In Sheol, a person was reunited with his people. Gen15:15; 25:8; 35:29; 37:35; 49:33; Num 20:24, 28; 31:2; Deut 32:50; 34:5; 2 Sam 12:23.

5) Sheol has divisions. Deut 32:22 'For a fire is kindled in My anger, And burns to the lowest part of Sheol...

6) In figurative language, Sheol is said to have gates. Isa 38:10.

7) Unbelievers experience Gods judgment in Sheol.
a) Gods anger: Deut. 32:22
b) Writhing in pain: Job 26:5 The Hebrew word is Chool and means to travail, to twist and turn in pain like a woman giving birth.
c) Distress and sorrow: Psa 116:3; 118:5
Quote:
Katjonjj
Primitive human concepts of the unseen.... and most of which you have taken out of context! Ever heard of figurative language? Lowest parts and lifted up are spiritual phrases used often in the bible. None of which indicate any division...
Poster rejects the Bible as the word of God and considers anything she doens't like as primitive human concepts. Poster particuliarly rejects the punishment of the unbeliever.

Poster asks if I have ever heard of figurative language. Since I said in #6 that figurative language was used to describe Hades as having gates, I suppose that I must have heard of figurative language!!!

Quote:
Quote:
Once resurrected out of Sheol/Hades, the unbeliever is cast bodily into the lake of fire where he experiences disgrace and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:2; John 5:28,29; Acts 24:15.
Quote:
Katjonjj
Again not one of those passages ACTUALLY say that.. you interpret it that way, erroneously!
Poster fails to compare scripture with scripture and can't put passages together. The passages all distinquish between the resurrection of the believer (the righteous) and the resurrection of the unbeliever (the wicked). Revelation 20:11-15 shows the unbelievers who have been brought up out of Hades and stand before Jesus Christ who then sends them into the lake of fire.

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3)The eternal hell is 'Gehenna' or 'Tophet' or 'the lake of fire.' Gehenna was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where children had once been offered up to Molech, bodies were dumped and burned there and the fires never went out. Jesus used the term 'Gehenna' to illustrate to horrors of the lake of fire in a way which his audience would understand.
Quote:
Katjonjj
WAS? Gehenna is still there. Not only that but you make a connection between Gehenna and the "horrors of the lake of fire" without any cause.. Why don't you show us the connection in scripture?


Quote:
Gehenna or the lake of fire

And now you try to make it seem as if they are interchangeable without anything to back that up! Interesting....
Poster wants a connection between Gehenna and the lake of fire. Poster rejects the fact that the people of Jesus' day understood that He used Gehenna to paint a mental picture of the actual lake of fire.

Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who can kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. The discerning reader will realize from this passage that the soul survives the death of the body. Jesus talks of Gehenna here, and states that man can kill the body but not the soul. Man can throw a person into the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem and kill the body, but being thrown into the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem cannot destroy the soul. Jesus then went on to say that man should fear Him (God) who can destroy both body and show in Gehenna. Jesus was not talking about the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem when He used the word Gehenna, except to relate it to the lake of fire which is where the unbeliever who has been resurrected out of Hades is thrown into. Revelation 20:11-15.


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Quote:
is the final destination of the unbeliever. After unbelievers are raised out of Hades and judged at the Great White Throne, according to their works, they are sent to their final punishment Rev 20:11-15. They will share the lake of fire with the devil and his angels for whom the eternal fire has been prepared.

Quote:
Katjonjj
Didn't you say above that Tartarus is the place for angels?
I said that at the present moment in time, the particular group of fallen angels that were involved in the Genesis 6 incident in which a certain number of fallen angels (not all fallen angels-SOME fallen angels) infiltrated the human race, and taking human females, produced a hybrid race of half human and half angelic beings known as the Nephilim. The fallen angels that were responsible for this are now imprisoned in Tartarus awaiting their final transference into the lake of fire where they will be joined by the fallen angels who are currently free on the earth to engage in the angelic conflict. Poster needs to take an interest.


Quote:
Quote:
The word destroy is Apollumi and does not mean cessation of existence, but rather it carries the meaning of utter ruination and eternal uselessness.
Quote:
Katjonjj
Yep... Apollumi certainly does and is used as "lost" here by Jesus himself:
"For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost." (Luke 19:10)
So really you are contradiction Jesus who says he came to save the destroyed but you say Jesus will leave them in their lost or destroyed state? Do we believe Jesus or you?
Poster makes the usual Universalist mistake of thinking that because Jesus came to save the lost, that all will be saved. The Scriptures are quite clear that many will be forever lost. The reason is because God gave man free will to choose for or against God. Many will choose to reject God and therefore be lost.


Apollumi <> Perish <> Destroy.

It is used by Jesus in Matt 10:24 to describe the condition of the unbeliever in the lake of fire. Eternal torment in utter ruin and uselessness, and hopelessness. That is what awaits those who depart from this life without having accepted God's offer of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.
[quote]

Quote:
Katjonjj
Again using lake of fire and Gehenna interchangeably when there is nothing to warrant that (that you have shown anyway).
I have already shown up above that Gehenna and the lake of fire are one and the same. Readers are free to research it.


Quote:
Katjonjj
So Jesus DIDN'T come to seek and save the destroyed? Why would he say that if he didn't intend to actually seek and save them but leave them to be tortured in the horrors of the lake of fire?

So many contradictions... so little time!

Again, poster fails to understand that just because Jesus came to seek the lost, doesn't mean that all will be saved.

Posters mind is muddled by false doctrine of Universalism and sees non existent contradictions.

Anyone who wishes to research any of what is on my post can easily research it and find out for themselves the validity of what has been said. I have no intention of continuing to indulge this poster who wishes only to debate. Therefore, this is my final comment.

I encourage readers to study the material on the original post,
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Old 06-21-2010, 02:05 AM
 
21,824 posts, read 16,678,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I HAVE. I have been through YEARS of struggle and study!! Years! I am finally understanding the love of God for the first time in my miserable life! I'm the kind of person that wants every "I" dotted and every "T" crossed before I say anything.

And there is a reason Mike won't reply to my last post in his other thread. He has NO scripture to refute what I said. Re-read my post. I promise you with evey last cell in my body, I do not take this lightly. I'm studying like a mad-woman.
Lady, the reason I haven't replied to your question is because I have been doing other posts and other things. You want to use Revelation 5:13 to prove the Universalist heresy of universal salvation.

Revelation 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying. ''To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.''

As a matter of fact I did a thread on this or one of the related passages. Everyone will acknowledge that Christ is Lord. Those who are saved will do so willingly and joyfully. But those who have rejected Christ will be forced as the defeated enemy of Christ, to acknowledge that He is Lord. They won't be happy about it. But faced with His glory, they will have no choice. Free will is for those who are alive now. After you have died, your fate is sealed.

Link:

Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

Excerpt:

Quote:
Wesley's Notes

His enemies must acknowledge his glory; but those in heaven say, Blessed be God and the Lamb.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acknowledging that Jesus is Lord does not save anyone. It is not at all the same as receiving Christ as Savior. And after death, there are no chances to be saved. Christ's enemies will be made His footstool.

Excerpt:

Quote:
Not only will Christ’s human enemies be made His footstool, but the Devil and his fallen angels will be made His footstool also. “Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him” – (I Pet.3:22). Lucifer and all the fallen angels that rebelled against God and followed him and all the children of the Devil that follow him will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity – (Rev.20:10-15). “..when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet” – (I Cor.15:25).
Christ’s Enemies become His Footstool

That is my answer to you.
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Old 06-21-2010, 02:15 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,489,911 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Lady, the reason I haven't replied to your question is because I have been doing other posts and other things. You want to use Revelation 5:13 to prove the Universalist heresy of universal salvation.

Revelation 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying. ''To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.''

As a matter of fact I did a thread on this or one of the related passages. Everyone will acknowledge that Christ is Lord. Those who are saved will do so willingly and joyfully. But those who have rejected Christ will be forced as the defeated enemy of Christ, to acknowledge that He is Lord. They won't be happy about it. But faced with His glory, they will have no choice. Free will is for those who are alive now. After you have died, your fate is sealed.

Link:

Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all
that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"


Excerpt:


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acknowledging that Jesus is Lord does not save anyone. It is not at all the same as receiving Christ as Savior. And after death, there are no chances to be saved. Christ's enemies will be made His footstool.

Excerpt:



Christ’s Enemies become His Footstool


That is my answer to you.
Mike, you know darned well you can't answer that post.
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Old 06-21-2010, 02:33 AM
 
21,824 posts, read 16,678,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Mike, you know darned well you can't answer that post.
I just did, lady. If you don't like the answer than that is your problem. Don't go telling me I didn't answer it. You just make a liar out of yourself.
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