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Old 06-22-2010, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Germany
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Ironmaw, you are correct. There was both ET and UR in Zoroastrianism.
and also annihilation as a further alternative,

I have read contradicting stuff but most sources lean towards universalism, a reason for missunderstandings might be that the ancients are said to have had no word for "eternity", this would include the Persians also

there generally seems to be a similar controversy about the idea of punishment in the afterlife in foreign religions as in Christianity, the Egypts for example are both claimed to have believed in either everlasting torment or annihilation

but I think it's fair to say that none or at least only a small minority (maybe the Greeks) of the ancient peoples had a belief in what you might call the medieval catholic hell that is still believed today
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Old 06-22-2010, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
and also annihilation as a further alternative,

I have read contradicting stuff but most sources lean towards universalism, a reason for missunderstandings might be that the ancients are said to have had no word for "eternity", this would include the Persians also

there generally seems to be a similar controversy about the idea of punishment in the afterlife in foreign religions as in Christianity, the Egypts for example are both claimed to have believed in either everlasting torment or annihilation

but I think it's fair to say that none or at least only a small minority (maybe the Greeks) of the ancient peoples had a belief in what you might call the medieval catholic hell that is still believed today
We don't need to focus just on Zoroastrianism. Any religion will do on this thread (Greek mythology, etc), but I was trying to find the religion with the most similarities to the Catholic version of Christianity, which the Protestant church picked up. I think of the Protestant church as pretty much Catholic without the guys in funny hats and rituals.

And, I'm not just focused on the hell aspect of Zoroastrianism. I'm also interested in it's eschatology, demonology and the like. Just anything related to Traditional Christianity from ancient religions, really.

Anyway, I would agree that the Catholic medieval version of hell, and some of the Protestant churches and their fans, i.e. Bill Wiese, are the only ones that hold such a perverted doctrine as torments by demons and such in the everlasting literal fires of eternal hell, and attribute it to the Creator of All, who is RECONCILING things in heaven and earth.

Out of all the pagan doctrines on this planet a belief in an "eternal" literal fire is among the most evil doctrines that the human imagination can make up. I wonder if the Pharisees, whom Jesus was speaking to in a MIGHTY angry tone, might have held some many-chambered netherworld belief system, after having been through Greece, which is why Jesus cloaked that parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man like he did, with some of their own nonsense.

Here is one of the ways the Jews look at the afterlife, which the Bible speaks nothing about, really.

From Judaism 101. "According to one mystical view, every sin we commit creates an angel of destruction (a demon), and after we die we are punished by the very demons that we created."

What concerns me is that there are too many Bible verses which speak of a higher mystery that "followers" of Christ HAVE to ignore to wage war against supposed enemies, which create the most UN-Christlike systems and thoughts and bring about the very OPPOSITE of the fruits of the Holy Spirit, which are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and meekness.

There are many verses which speak of ALL things in the universe being reconciled. But, if we ignore those verses, and we march on like every other religion and pagan doctrine, we will never understand them. We will still look at life in black and white, us vs. them, outsider vs. the elect, and never see that God is working and planning something beyond our comprehension, to rid the entire universe of darkness and confusion, with absolutely nothing left out of his plan.


Last edited by herefornow; 06-22-2010 at 05:10 PM..
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Old 06-22-2010, 04:18 PM
 
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The Astec religion in South America used to worship the blood to the gods but that religion did not influence Christianity, Zoroastrianis may be monotheism, but acually they are Dualism, were there are two independent devine being or eternal principle the one good and the other evil , which is diffrent than Christianity were there is one Supernatural Lord God and Lord of all through Jesus Christ , but there are other spiritual being of the natural who may have limited power over the cattle and flesh that is not protected by the Lord God, but this is not Dualism because Christians do not worship these natural spirits of the earth and do not consider them to be devine.... Jesus Christ did not get the Religion of Christianity from Zoroasthrianism but through The Lord God and Jesus Christ is called the Author and the Finisher of the Faith........
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Old 06-22-2010, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Originally Posted by hljc View Post
The Astec religion in South America used to worship the blood to the gods but that religion did not influence Christianity, Zoroastrianis may be monotheism, but acually they are Dualism, were there are two independent devine being or eternal principle the one good and the other evil , which is diffrent than Christianity were there is one Supernatural Lord God and Lord of all through Jesus Christ , but there are other spiritual being of the natural who may have limited power over the cattle and flesh that is not protected by the Lord God, but this is not Dualism because Christians do not worship these natural spirits of the earth and do not consider them to be devine.... Jesus Christ did not get the Religion of Christianity from Zoroasthrianism but through The Lord God and Jesus Christ is called the Author and the Finisher of the Faith........
I am not trying to say that Yeshua (Jesus) got his religion from any place but his Father. What I am trying to say is that whoever put the Bible together had an agenda to stick to, and whatever it was that Jesus and his disciples were trying to do morphed into yet another muddled piece of a million different religions; with it's heavens and hells, eschatology and demonology, etc. I don't believe what we see today, or what we have seen for the last 2000 years is anything like the early house-churches with it's small band of people who believed in the love and gentleness of Christ, which was the opposite of the religions and myths around them, for the most part, with it's thunder-bolt throwing angry gods and fiery netherworlds.
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Old 06-23-2010, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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After all these danged symbols () there are some snippets about the afterlife from the book, "The Dawn and Twilight of Zoroastrianism." There is some information on Zoroastrianism's version of the trinity, also.

As Ironmaw said, Zoroastrianism also ties to the Muslim religion, which is explained in one of the books I am reading, "In Search of Zarathustra," and pretty much ANY religion around the planet.

From what I can tell Zoroastrianism is alive and well around the globe and is entrenched in our churches. Babylon? The religion of Mazda---The One True God (Ahura Mazda).


Below are a few symbols from that religion.

Here is Zarathustra. Look familiar?















The One True God, Ahura Mazda



Heaven, Hell, and The Holy Spirit----From "The Dawn and Twilight of Zarathustra."

God is judge; and he is the creator of all things, both spiritual and material. He is omnipotent for he 'rules at will', that is to say, though his Holy Spirit may be pitted against the Destructive Spirit, this happens by his will and consent. It is he who will judge all men according to their deeds in the last days.

The below in blue is from Zarathustra's writings, Yansa:

"This I ask thee, Lord; answer me truly. Who created Right-Mindedness venerable with the Kingdom? Who made the Son dutiful in his soul to his Father? recognizing thee by these signs as the creator of all things through thy Holy Spirit, I help thee."

Heaven and hell are variously described in the Gathas; they are the best and worst existences. Unlike Muhmammad, Zoroaster does not describe the joys of heaven in physical terms; the blessed attain to 'long life', that is, presumably, eternal life and the Kingdom of the Good Mind. They will be possessed of Wholeness and Immortality, God's supreme gifts to the faithful.

Oddly enough, the torments of hell are more fully described than the joys of heaven.
The damned will be oppressed with discomfort and torments, condemned to 'a long age of darkness, foul food, and cries of woe'. Unlike later Zoroastrianism in which the souls of the damned are released in the last days, the Prophet seems to have regarded the torments of the damned as being eternal, for whereas the soul of the just will be granted immortality, the soul of the damned will be tormented in perpetuity.

Zoroaster's doctrine of rewards and punishments, of an eternity of bliss and an eternity of woe allotted to good and evil men in another life beyond the grave is so strikingly similar to Christian teaching that we cannot fail to ask whether here at least there is not a direct influence at work.

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Old 06-24-2010, 08:58 AM
 
Location: In God's Hand
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Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
How much influence does B.C. Zoroastrianism (or any pre-Yeshua religion) have on the Abrahamic religions? Is Zoroastrianism closer to traditional Christianity than Universal Reconciliation?

Here are a few of Zoroastrianism's beliefs:

Trinity.
Demonology.
Eschatology.
Everlasting hell.

It is my firm belief that traditional Christianity departed from the faith almost the minute it left the gate. I also believe that people who believe in the Restoration of ALL Things, who were heavily persecuted in the past, are much, MUCH closer to the truth than any other group on this planet.

How have the above beliefs (Everlasting hell, etc.) twisted the true message of the gospel and the reconciliation of ALL things?
Jesus said that those that love Him will keep His words.

There is no reason to persecute a UR on their beliefs by pagans nor by religious zealots since it is inclusive. I'm sure there would be protests and arguments as well as disbeliefs, but hardly on the scale that warrants killing them.

As far as similarities: you can find that also in Flood legends, but which is of the Truth?

Abiogenesis and the Origin of Life

There are similarities of the virgin birth legends, but again, which is of the Truth?

Virgin Births

If there was no ET, then what wrath of God are we being saved from? If after death, judgment is rendered, how can anyone have assurance of their salvation if the eternal judgment can be taken back by God? Would not the gift of eternal life be lacking assurance from His word? Would the victory in Christ be hollow if death and hell along with Satan and his angels could not be contained in the lake of fire, and sin can once again, do its work in seperating us from God?

There have been other christs, but none, died, rose from the dead, and ascended to the right hand of God the Father that His deserting followers would suddenly have the courage to die for Him out of love towards the lost:

Hence... the lost are still lost and not saved by the Lord Jesus Christ yet and that is why the Good News must be heard for anyone to believe and have faith in the Son of God to be saved.

Otherwise, if I was an UR, why bother risking life and limb if everyone is saved anyway?
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Old 06-24-2010, 09:05 AM
 
Location: In God's Hand
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Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
We don't need to focus just on Zoroastrianism. Any religion will do on this thread (Greek mythology, etc), but I was trying to find the religion with the most similarities to the Catholic version of Christianity, which the Protestant church picked up. I think of the Protestant church as pretty much Catholic without the guys in funny hats and rituals.
Matthew 23:1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. 13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

That is how I see the RCC and catholicism as by Jesus own words, they are far from abiding in His words. Yes, the Protestants have picked up on them, the latest in ecumenical drive to unite the churches by subtlety in bringing back to the fold of the RCC as Jesuit agents are driven to do.
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Old 06-24-2010, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Originally Posted by Enow View Post
There is no reason to persecute a UR on their beliefs by pagans nor by religious zealots since it is inclusive. I'm sure there would be protests and arguments as well as disbeliefs, but hardly on the scale that warrants killing them.
Are you kidding me??? Look at what the Catholic church did to ANYBODY who went against their doctrine! Can you imagine in the dark ages what it would have been like to say, "All is Well!" You are all free! Love people, ALL people!

That would have KILLED the Catholic organization, stopped the Crusades and SO MUCH MORE!

UR folks were not only killed by the Catholic church they were ostracized and killed by the Protestant church! No kidding!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
If there was no ET, then what wrath of God are we being saved from? If after death, judgment is rendered, how can anyone have assurance of their salvation if the eternal judgment can be taken back by God? Would not the gift of eternal life be lacking assurance from His word? Would the victory in Christ be hollow if death and hell along with Satan and his angels could not be contained in the lake of fire, and sin can once again, do its work in seperating us from God?
Enow, we are SAVED FROM DEATH, our punishment! We will rise again! Yay??

God's wrath (NOT eternal torment) remains on those who die in their sins, and then what?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
Otherwise, if I was an UR, why bother risking life and limb if everyone is saved anyway?
I know that the Anabaptist's (many of them UR) risked life and limb and were killed and ran out of town because they would not CONFORM to the people around them. They would not fight in the Protestant and Catholic wars and such. Just imagine, if you would, what it would have been like to live in a small village where everybody knew you and you were talking of love when everybody else was getting ready for war........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
Matthew 23:1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. 13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

That is how I see the RCC and Catholicism as by Jesus own words, they are far from abiding in His words. Yes, the Protestants have picked up on them, the latest in ecumenical drive to unite the churches by subtlety in bringing back to the fold of the RCC as Jesuit agents are driven to do.
Agreed. But, in my most humble opinion, it has always really been about POLITICS. Nothing more. The church has never been Christian. Even this country was founded on liberty for all, but they knew what would happen (liberty for all), so they wanted churches on every corner to teach the citizens how to behave. The churches were planted for no other reason except to produce good citizens. Think long and hard about this.

When I started looking into this kind of stuff, I thought, "well, maybe there are two or three real Christians on this planet." But, then all these danged verses wouldn't agree with me, so I had to take a closer, MUCH closer look at what was going on, and boy does it all stink to high heaven!

Last edited by herefornow; 06-24-2010 at 03:32 PM..
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