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Old 03-12-2018, 04:37 AM
 
Location: US
27,953 posts, read 15,035,923 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
LOL Ecclesiasticus, and now Enoch. People sure do love their obscure apocrypha material. How about from Bel and the Dragon, or Sigmund and the Sea Monster?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfWPZ6vT1-k
Loved them Sigmund and the Sea Monsters...Saturday morning lineup...Nothing like it anymore...
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Old 03-12-2018, 05:36 AM
 
Location: US
27,953 posts, read 15,035,923 times
Reputation: 1734
Quote:
Originally Posted by 101c View Post
I did and this book is a phony, it do not line up with the Bible.

PCY.
It’s does line up with the Bible, it fills in the gaps...Like who Cain married or where the Nephilim came from...
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Old 03-12-2018, 06:39 AM
 
Location: Mobile, Al.
3,671 posts, read 1,536,566 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
It’s does line up with the Bible, it fills in the gaps...Like who Cain married or where the Nephilim came from...
GINOLJC, first thanks for the reply. second, that's an ERROR on your pat for believing such false things. the Bible tells us more than you think. as for your example, where Cain got his wife from, or where did the Nephilim come from. it's all in the bible.

now to just peak your curiosity, Cain's wife was one of his none fallen cousin from the children that Adam and Eve had in the garden before they fell into sin, and before Adam and Eve had Cain and Abel outside the garden.

see you had no clue that Adam and Eve had Children in the garden before they had Cain and Able outside the garden.

knowing that, it answers the Nephilim questions, as well as the Sons of God in Genesis chapter 6.

by not knowing the Bible, men make Errors.

Like not knowing Adam and Eve had children in the garden before they had Cain and Abel. then comes the lie, "the gap theory". the fallen angel lie, or the false Seth line lie, for the sons of God.

see, lies come when you don't know.


PCY
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Old 03-12-2018, 12:36 PM
 
10,510 posts, read 2,683,290 times
Reputation: 7144
Quote:
Originally Posted by 101c View Post
GINOLJC, first thanks for the reply. second, that's an ERROR on your pat for believing such false things. the Bible tells us more than you think. as for your example, where Cain got his wife from, or where did the Nephilim come from. it's all in the bible.

now to just peak your curiosity, Cain's wife was one of his none fallen cousin from the children that Adam and Eve had in the garden before they fell into sin, and before Adam and Eve had Cain and Abel outside the garden.

see you had no clue that Adam and Eve had Children in the garden before they had Cain and Able outside the garden.

knowing that, it answers the Nephilim questions, as well as the Sons of God in Genesis chapter 6.

by not knowing the Bible, men make Errors.

Like not knowing Adam and Eve had children in the garden before they had Cain and Abel. then comes the lie, "the gap theory". the fallen angel lie, or the false Seth line lie, for the sons of God.

see, lies come when you don't know.


PCY
The Nephilim were NOT normal men, If they were just regular men, who were very influential or powerful, I dont think they would have a specific name given to them, in order to refer to them as such. and if they were just powerful men, why were other men, who were very powerful and influential at the time, not referred to as Nephilim as well?

How they came to be, is one of those things that we are not meant to know the details of, its really not that important either, sort of like asking the question of where the physical body/ mass come from when angels took on human form...its not something that can be explained in a way we can understand.
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Old 03-12-2018, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Mobile, Al.
3,671 posts, read 1,536,566 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
The Nephilim were NOT normal men, If they were just regular men, who were very influential or powerful, I dont think they would have a specific name given to them, in order to refer to them as such. and if they were just powerful men, why were other men, who were very powerful and influential at the time, not referred to as Nephilim as well?

How they came to be, is one of those things that we are not meant to know the details of, its really not that important either, sort of like asking the question of where the physical body/ mass come from when angels took on human form...its not something that can be explained in a way we can understand.
First thanks for your reply. second, I believe it is for us to know because it's in the bible for all to see and KNOW.

I understand the definition of Nephilim, and they were normal men of flesh and blood. in Genesis 6:1 - 4 tell us the concern. this is where men get theories and false assumption from. the lack of knowledge, and void the wisdom of God.

Many men don't understand the two lines from Adam and Eve. hence the false assumptions. Genesis 6 tells us the information, combined with Genesis chapter 3.

PCY.
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Old 03-12-2018, 01:42 PM
 
21,804 posts, read 16,670,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101c View Post
First thanks for your reply. second, I believe it is for us to know because it's in the bible for all to see and KNOW.

I understand the definition of Nephilim, and they were normal men of flesh and blood. in Genesis 6:1 - 4 tell us the concern. this is where men get theories and false assumption from. the lack of knowledge, and void the wisdom of God.

Many men don't understand the two lines from Adam and Eve. hence the false assumptions. Genesis 6 tells us the information, combined with Genesis chapter 3.

PCY.
No, the Nephilim were not normal men. Both Peter and Jude state that angels were involved in the Genesis 6:4 affair and that as a result those angels are now confined in pits of darkness where they await the day of judgment. See 2 Peter 2:4-5 and Jude 6. The Hebrew phrase Bene Ha'elohim - sons of God used in Genesis 6:2 refers to angels in the Old Testament. The same phrase is used of angels in Job 1:6, 2:1, and 38:7. The Nephilim were the offspring of the mating of these angels with human women. And this is the way it was understood by the ancient Jews and by the early church.

Nephilim by the way refers to giants. The Old Testament mentions various giant clans.

Also the book of 1 Enoch was well respected both by the Jews and by the early church, and the New Testament writers made good use of it. Where do you think the lake of fire imagery in the New Testament comes from for example? Not from the Old Testament, but from 1 Enoch.
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Old 03-12-2018, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Mobile, Al.
3,671 posts, read 1,536,566 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, the Nephilim were not normal men. Both Peter and Jude state that angels were involved in the Genesis 6:4 affair and that as a result those angels are now confined in pits of darkness where they await the day of judgment. See 2 Peter 2:4-5 and Jude 6. The Hebrew phrase Bene Ha'elohim - sons of God used in Genesis 6:2 refers to angels in the Old Testament. The same phrase is used of angels in Job 1:6, 2:1, and 38:7. The Nephilim were the offspring of the mating of these angels with human women. And this is the way it was understood by the ancient Jews and by the early church.

Nephilim by the way refers to giants. The Old Testament mentions various giant clans.

Also the book of 1 Enoch was well respected both by the Jews and by the early church, and the New Testament writers made good use of it. Where do you think the lake of fire imagery in the New Testament comes from for example? Not from the Old Testament, but from 1 Enoch.
First thanks for the reply. second, I disagree with your assessment that the sons of God were angels. neither Job Job 1:6, 2:1, nor Job 38:7 states that these were angles. nor was The Nephilim the offspring of the mating of these angels with human women, this is a heresy, a grave ERROR.

and neither was this understood by the ancient Jews and by the early church to be the truth. and as mention, the book of Enoch is a phony.

I'm prepared to prove that the sons of God in Genesis and Job are not angels.

PCY.
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Old 03-12-2018, 03:53 PM
 
21,804 posts, read 16,670,340 times
Reputation: 8649
Quote:
Originally Posted by 101c View Post
First thanks for the reply. second, I disagree with your assessment that the sons of God were angels. neither Job Job 1:6, 2:1, nor Job 38:7 states that these were angles. nor was The Nephilim the offspring of the mating of these angels with human women, this is a heresy, a grave ERROR.

and neither was this understood by the ancient Jews and by the early church to be the truth. and as mention, the book of Enoch is a phony.

I'm prepared to prove that the sons of God in Genesis and Job are not angels.

PCY.
I'm sure you do disagree. But the fact of the matter is the phrase 'Sons of God' in the Old Testament does refer to angels. I've already shown you from Job 38:7 that the sons of God shouted for joy when God laid the cornerstone of the earth. The human race didn't exist at the time.

Now if you want to try and make a case that the sons of God were some other kind of spirit being in contrast with angels, you're still faced with the fact that the sons of God in Job 38:7 cannot possibly refer to humans.

And so no, you cannot prove that the sons of God in Genesis and Job were not angels.


Regarding Genesis 6:4, both the ancient Jews and the early church took the view that the sons of God referred to angels who mated with human women. Sure, not everyone agreed, but it is clear from ancient Jewish writings such as 1 Enoch which was a very popular Jewish writing that it was widely believed. Furthermore, as was already shown, both Peter and Jude said that angels were involved in the Genesis 6:4. And here is what the Encyclopedia Judaica has to say about it.
Encyclopedia Judaica: Nephilim

NEPHILIM (Heb. נְפִילִים), a race of giants said to have dwelt in pre-Israelite Canaan (Num. 13:33). Genesis 6:1–2 relates that the "sons of gods," i.e., divine or angelic beings, took mortal wives; verse 4 continues, "It was then, and later too, that the Nephilim appeared [lit., were] on earth–when the divine beings cohabited with the daughters of men, who bore them offspring. They were the heroes [Heb. gibborim] of old, the men of renown." This could mean that the Nephilim were contemporaneous, but not identical, with the offspring of divine beings and earthly women, who were called gibborim (so, e.g., Morgenstern, in HUCA 14 (1939), 85ff.). The above translation, however, follows an ancient tradition in equating the Nephilim and the gibborim as offspring of the union of *angels and mortals .

There's more. Click and read: Nephilim

Nor is the book of Enoch ''phony.'' It is of course true that Enoch did not really write the book attributed to him. It is a class of writing known as Pseudepigrapha and was written over a period of time during the intertestamental period. But the New Testament writers used it to get their ideas across and quoted from it and alluded to it.

Again, where do you think the New Testament writers got the lake of fire imagery from? They got it from 1 Enoch.

Addendum: Added at 4:30 PM:
Don Stewart :: Were the Sons of God Fallen Angels?

Many interpreters see the sons of God as angels who had fallen from their heavenly estate. They were enticed by the women on the earth, cohabited with them, and produced offspring (half-human, half-angels). This offspring, the Nephilim, corrupted the earth, causing God to send a Flood to wipe everyone out except Noah's family-those who had not been tainted by the angelic sin.

1.Ancient View

The view that the sons of God were angels is very ancient. In the first century A.D., Flavius Josephus in his Antiquities of the Jews (1:3:1) held the position that angels co-habited with women. Later authors such as Philo of Alexandria (early first century A.D.) also held this position as did many rabbinical authorities. The Genesis Apocryphon, among the Dead Sea Scrolls, states this angelic interpretation.

Furthermore, many Christian interpreters also took this position. These include: Justin, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, and Ambrose.

Fallen Out Of Favor

The angelic view fell into disrepute among Christian interpreters from the fourth to the eighteenth century. Saint Augustine's rejection of the angel interpretation (De Civitate Dei 15, written between A.D. 413-426, had enormous influence. Those who rejected the supernatural angelic reading did so because of theological objections that arose to angels cohabiting with humans.

Read more: https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/...tewart_724.cfm

Last edited by Mike555; 03-12-2018 at 04:31 PM..
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Old 03-12-2018, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Mobile, Al.
3,671 posts, read 1,536,566 times
Reputation: 115
We will look at all of your concerns.

#1. the sons of God in Job

#2. the sons of God in Genesis.

#3. the Nephilim were not normal men, giants

we will look at all of these, one step at a time. the reason why I put Job on the list first, because many use job to support their false thinking concerning Genesis 6. so, by eliminating job we can then eliminate the false thing about Genesis chapter 6. let's begin, I warn you, I might post a quite a bit at one time but copy it and paste it into your WP for examination later.

the Almighty, the creator of heaven, and earth in Job 38:5 are asking some questions that Job cannot answer or any man, nor any angle. but God has answered it in Job 38:7 “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”. Here is what most people say, "see this prove that it was the angles". NO, NOT so fast. Question, who really are these “morning stars”, and the sons of God that sang, and shouted. Let’s see who and what they are. Here in Job 38 God almighty are using metaphors. Example, Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding". Job 38:5 "Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?" Job 38:6 "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof”. We know that the earth has no physical foundation or corner stone. How do we know this? right in the same book of Job it states this, Job 26:7 "He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing”. God himself is what keep the earth where it is. Understand, God is giving metaphors to Job and us to understand what he did in creation, again, Job 38:8 "Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?”. We all know that there are no actual doors holding back the water of the seas, the almighty do that himself. But God is using metaphors to give Job and his friends understanding about creation. Now we will solve the “morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” question. First the morning stars. the morning stars are the actual stars in the heavens before you laugh, let's study. the book of James first. Follow and understand. James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning”. The Almighty is called the “Father” of lights, and lights here is plural and is the Greek word, G5457 φῶς phos (fōs') n. which means luminousness. Now hold that thought and go to Thayer's Greek Definitions and or the blue letter bible, look up G3962 πατήρ pater, (Father)
- Transliteration: Pater
- Phonetic: pat-ayr'
- Definition:
1. generator or male ancestor
a. either the nearest ancestor: father of the corporeal nature, natural fathers, both parents.
THIS IS WHAT MOST PEOPLE THINK WHEN THEY HEAR THE WORD “FATHER”.

but we are interested in the 3rd definition, and here it is.
3. God is called the Father
a. of the stars, the heavenly luminaries, because he is their creator, upholder, ruler


God is the Father of the “STARS”, and the heavenly luminaries. Yes, the literal stars in the sky/heavens. google the word stars, please add the “s” to the end of stars, for Job said, morning “stars” not morning “star”. the stars are the actual stars in the heavens. Now, go to dictionary.com, or the free dictionary, or any dictionary and look up luminaries in the plural a celestial body, as the sun or moon. Now let’s see this sun and moon and the actual stars as what they did in Job 38:7. Remember the Almighty said that they sang and shouted for joy... Right. Let’s see this metaphor clearly. Psalms 148:1 "Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights. Verse 2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. 3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. 4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created”. Now what do the word praise mean here? It is the Hebrew word, H1984 הָלַל halal (haw-lal') v. which can be translated as “sing”, or “shine”. See the stars, the sun and the moon sang or praised God by shining their lights at "CREATION". One more, Psalms 65:13 "The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing”. The pastures, and valleys also praising God? Yes, how? by shouting for joy and singing. It’s all a metaphor. Do we now understand.

the sons of God in Job 38 are metaphors, which many mistaken for angels.

next, we will look at your Job 1:6, 2:1 and see your big mistake there.

PCY.
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Old 03-12-2018, 04:15 PM
 
21,804 posts, read 16,670,340 times
Reputation: 8649
Quote:
Originally Posted by 101c View Post
We will look at all of your concerns.

#1. the sons of God in Job

#2. the sons of God in Genesis.

#3. the Nephilim were not normal men, giants

we will look at all of these, one step at a time. the reason why I put Job on the list first, because many use job to support their false thinking concerning Genesis 6. so, by eliminating job we can then eliminate the false thing about Genesis chapter 6. let's begin, I warn you, I might post a quite a bit at one time but copy it and paste it into your WP for examination later.

the Almighty, the creator of heaven, and earth in Job 38:5 are asking some questions that Job cannot answer or any man, nor any angle. but God has answered it in Job 38:7 “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”. Here is what most people say, "see this prove that it was the angles". NO, NOT so fast. Question, who really are these “morning stars”, and the sons of God that sang, and shouted. Let’s see who and what they are. Here in Job 38 God almighty are using metaphors. Example, Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding". Job 38:5 "Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?" Job 38:6 "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof”. We know that the earth has no physical foundation or corner stone. How do we know this? right in the same book of Job it states this, Job 26:7 "He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing”. God himself is what keep the earth where it is. Understand, God is giving metaphors to Job and us to understand what he did in creation, again, Job 38:8 "Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?”. We all know that there are no actual doors holding back the water of the seas, the almighty do that himself. But God is using metaphors to give Job and his friends understanding about creation. Now we will solve the “morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” question. First the morning stars. the morning stars are the actual stars in the heavens before you laugh, let's study. the book of James first. Follow and understand. James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning”. The Almighty is called the “Father” of lights, and lights here is plural and is the Greek word, G5457 φῶς phos (fōs') n. which means luminousness. Now hold that thought and go to Thayer's Greek Definitions and or the blue letter bible, look up G3962 πατήρ pater, (Father)
- Transliteration: Pater
- Phonetic: pat-ayr'
- Definition:
1. generator or male ancestor
a. either the nearest ancestor: father of the corporeal nature, natural fathers, both parents.
THIS IS WHAT MOST PEOPLE THINK WHEN THEY HEAR THE WORD “FATHER”.

but we are interested in the 3rd definition, and here it is.
3. God is called the Father
a. of the stars, the heavenly luminaries, because he is their creator, upholder, ruler


God is the Father of the “STARS”, and the heavenly luminaries. Yes, the literal stars in the sky/heavens. google the word stars, please add the “s” to the end of stars, for Job said, morning “stars” not morning “star”. the stars are the actual stars in the heavens. Now, go to dictionary.com, or the free dictionary, or any dictionary and look up luminaries in the plural a celestial body, as the sun or moon. Now let’s see this sun and moon and the actual stars as what they did in Job 38:7. Remember the Almighty said that they sang and shouted for joy... Right. Let’s see this metaphor clearly. Psalms 148:1 "Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights. Verse 2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. 3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. 4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created”. Now what do the word praise mean here? It is the Hebrew word, H1984 הָלַל halal (haw-lal') v. which can be translated as “sing”, or “shine”. See the stars, the sun and the moon sang or praised God by shining their lights at "CREATION". One more, Psalms 65:13 "The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing”. The pastures, and valleys also praising God? Yes, how? by shouting for joy and singing. It’s all a metaphor. Do we now understand.

the sons of God in Job 38 are metaphors, which many mistaken for angels.

next, we will look at your Job 1:6, 2:1 and see your big mistake there.

PCY.
You've already been refuted. See post #68.

Furthermore the sons of God in Job 1:6 and 2:1 were angels who came to present themselves before God. As was Satan who also came with them.

Additionally; Don Stewart :: Were the Sons of God Fallen Angels?
1.Ancient View

The view that the sons of God were angels is very ancient. In the first century A.D., Flavius Josephus in his Antiquities of the Jews (1:3:1) held the position that angels co-habited with women. Later authors such as Philo of Alexandria (early first century A.D.) also held this position as did many rabbinical authorities. The Genesis Apocryphon, among the Dead Sea Scrolls, states this angelic interpretation.

Furthermore, many Christian interpreters also took this position. These include: Justin, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, and Ambrose.

Fallen Out Of Favor

The angelic view fell into disrepute among Christian interpreters from the fourth to the eighteenth century. Saint Augustine's rejection of the angel interpretation (De Civitate Dei 15, written between A.D. 413-426, had enormous influence. Those who rejected the supernatural angelic reading did so because of theological objections that arose to angels cohabiting with humans.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/...tewart_724.cfm

Last edited by Mike555; 03-12-2018 at 04:26 PM..
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