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Old 03-30-2018, 12:24 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
It doesn't. But people love a good story, so it got invented.
For sure...

 
Old 03-30-2018, 08:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n..Xuipa View Post
the Word and Enoch says says they were "the Sons of God" .. it doesn't say fallen angels..

Gen 6:2

That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Gen 6:4

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Job 1:6

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.( and one satans is one of them)
Job 2:1

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 38:7

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Jhn 1:12

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Rom 8:14

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:19

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Phl 2:15

That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1Jo 3:1

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1Jo 3:2

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Luk 3:38

Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.


the sons of God is what ADAM and Jesus is called. are you all saying they are fallen angels? no they were men !!! Perfect men with the spirit of God glory in them.
google


NOW Ladies think about this!! what if .. these pretty boy's sin was mating with genticly fallen/ glor-less women and what if it was not a sin to mate, or maybe their second biggest
sins were they were to wait until they become "revealed" to the world? ...... meaning yes they could mate because they are all men....

and what if these pretty boys will someday get some awesome perfect ladies.. .. Now all ladies can cheer for the "revealing of the sons God" too and then pray you can be one of those perfected Daughters of God who get chosen by one of those perfect Sons of God right !! or something like that .. maybe there is a Super dooper reward waiting for all our double troubles? when we overcome and become perfect as the Father's Daughters..

It must be something different than fallen angels though folks..!!
Actually n..Xuipa, both 1 Enoch and the Bible say that it was angels who took human wives. I Enoch of course was not written by Enoch. It is a pseudepigraphal book written in the name of Enoch over a period of time with the earliest parts having been written perhaps during the third century BC.

1 Enoch chapter six specifically states that a group of 200 angels took an oath to carry out a plan to choose wives from among men. These angels descended to Mount Hermon which is to the north of Israel.
[Chapter 6]

1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not 4 indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations 5 not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves 6 by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn 7 and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders: Samlazaz, their leader, Araklba, Rameel, Kokablel, Tamlel, Ramlel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, 8 Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaq1el, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. These are their chiefs of tens. [Bolding mine]

The Wesley Center Online: Book Of Enoch
Chapters 18 and 19 describe the prison of the angels that took part in the activity.
Chapter 18

. . . And I saw a deep abyss, with columns of heavenly fire, and among them I saw columns of fire fall, which were beyond measure alike towards 12 the height and towards the depth. And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no 13 birds, but it was a waste and horrible place. I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains, 14 and to me, when I inquired regarding them, The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of 16 their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guilt should be consummated (even) for ten thousand years.'

Chapter 19

1 And Uriel said to me: 'Here shall stand the angels who have connected themselves with women, and their spirits assuming many different forms are defiling mankind and shall lead them astray into sacrificing to demons as gods, (here shall they stand,) till the day of the great judgement in 2 which they shall be judged till they are made an end of. And the women also of the angels who 3 went astray shall become sirens.' And I, Enoch, alone saw the vision, the ends of all things: and no man shall see as I have seen.

The Wesley Center Online: Book Of Enoch
In the New Testament both Peter and Jude refer to an event in which angels were involved which could only be referring to the incident in Genesis chapter six.
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5] and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Jude 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
In agreement with 1 Enoch, both Peter and Jude say that certain angels were involved in an activity which resulted in them being imprisoned and awaiting the day of judgment.

Additionally, the book of Jubilees, another pseudepigraphal book, also states that it was angels who took human wives.
Chapter 5

5:1 And it came to pass when the children of men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born unto them, that the angels of God saw them on a certain year of this jubilee, that they were beautiful to look upon; and they took themselves wives of all whom they chose, and they bare unto them sons and they were giants.

Jubilees 5
 
Old 03-30-2018, 01:06 PM
 
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angels just means messenger.

the scripture calls them the sons of God.. Ben h1121

בֵּן
ben
Pronounce Hebrew root for H1121 בֵּן
אֱלֹהִים
'elohiym

I believe enoch says they were "the Watchers" ... thus someone of heavenly creation... but these are not the messengers or eunuchs type.. But sons of God like Adam and Jesus.

you can't make them Angels because we / mankind don't even know what an angel is , what race of heavenly creature are the eunuchs and race of heavenly creature are the Sons of God ?
except anything or any race of heavenly beings can bring a message... angels it is to bare of a messages, heck the donkey was an legally an angel that day !! and how many of what we now call angels like at the tombsat the ressurrection and even Gabriel.. hsi name is MAN!

were really sons of God?

we are all ignorant of what an angel even is or what A Son of God even fully is.. we only have hints.. and not enough hints to make doctrines about who is fallen angels and who isn't..
I believe Enoch calls them "watchers" which may or may not be a different race of heavenly beings.. But the WORD CALLS THEM BEN ELOHIYM and it calls Jesus and Adam that same thing. and we know that they were made perfect men.

. now men have decided from their linited veiw of God's reality...what that word ANGELS, WATCHERS and SONS OF GOD means for themselves.
I do believe heavenly perfected men and not the eunuch's types of messengers /" angels" are what fell back then.and I think ENOCH proves his point well and so does scripture and I don't beleive they conflict with each other at all. ..

but I believe men like to make everything a conflict, when there is no conflict ..
 
Old 03-30-2018, 01:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n..Xuipa View Post
angels just means messenger.

the scripture calls them the sons of God.. Ben h1121

בֵּן
ben
Pronounce Hebrew root for H1121 בֵּן
אֱלֹהִים
'elohiym

I believe enoch says they were "the Watchers" ... thus someone of heavenly creation... but these are not the messengers or eunuchs type.. But sons of God like Adam and Jesus.

you can't make them Angels because we / mankind don't even know what an angel is , what race of heavenly creature are the eunuchs and race of heavenly creature are the Sons of God ?
except anything or any race of heavenly beings can bring a message... angels it is to bare of a messages, heck the donkey was an legally an angel that day !! and how many of what we now call angels like at the tombsat the ressurrection and even Gabriel.. hsi name is MAN!

were really sons of God?

we are all ignorant of what an angel even is or what A Son of God even fully is.. we only have hints.. and not enough hints to make doctrines about who is fallen angels and who isn't..
I believe Enoch calls them "watchers" which may or may not be a different race of heavenly beings.. But the WORD CALLS THEM BEN ELOHIYM and it calls Jesus and Adam that same thing. and we know that they were made perfect men.

. now men have decided from their linited veiw of God's reality...what that word ANGELS, WATCHERS and SONS OF GOD means for themselves.
I do believe heavenly perfected men and not the eunuch's types of messengers /" angels" are what fell back then.and I think ENOCH proves his point well and so does scripture and I don't beleive they conflict with each other at all. ..

but I believe men like to make everything a conflict, when there is no conflict ..
n..Xuipa, they were angelic beings, not humans. But believe what you want.
 
Old 03-30-2018, 04:53 PM
 
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these concepts are very hard to understand.. and t best we makes guesses.. and the more we think we know less we really know..
but for me here is how I look at it.


Jesus rejects Satan and all of Satans powers and authrotities.. by doing deliverance of demons in the first place. I believe he is evil. period. Not God's anything .. But God is forcing him to be legal in his courts.

so I will continue to also believe satanand the Devil are both evil entities seeking their best and no one elses.. certainly NOT FOR MEN in anyway. .

Mat 16:23

But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Mar 8:33

But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
Luk 4:8

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Mat 4:1

Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

Luk 4:2

being tempted for forty days by the devil. And in those days He ate nothing, and afterward when they had ended, He was hungry.



so the point here then is who is the devil.( but it is not presented as a name ).
it seems Satan and the devil are Powers of this fallen world ? and in one verse one record about the temptation one says "devil" and one says "Satan"..
both the devil and Satan have bodies it seems we can almost verify that. .

so the only difference I can find in these things is Satan was a power in Peter and it glorifed men concepts and mens desires for power etc.. .. when satan went with the Sons of God to go before God .. and to accuse Job ,, he wanted a man to curse God. so that is Satan Goals I believe is get men to curse God or God to curse men. ..

but when tempting Jesus
"the (d)evil"( once is called satan, obviously a prince ) wanted direct worship.
which I can't understand the small( D ) as if it it not a name.
but in another of the bible book he is called Satan...

obviously, these two are the same person or they are best Buds and serve each other .. but I view Satan more like the unrighteous version of the holy spirit more as the powers of hell and the authorities of hell in mens minds.

and I suspect that the Devil is the unrighteous version of the Lord. to all their people and powers. He will become their "savior" and their God if the people will let him. he seeks worship . as if he is a prince seeking worship..

but I don't know what I am talking about!!! .. just talking it out really.
never made much sense to me to worry about how evil , evil can be .. and where or how it is maintained and serviced by men or demons. .. I really never wanted to know anything but the basics.
,mostly I wanted to know how to define life , to see and recognize just life without any helpers.. . then I would find the Lord there someplace.and he will protect us .

Last edited by n..Xuipa; 03-30-2018 at 05:04 PM..
 
Old 03-30-2018, 05:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
n..Xuipa, they were angelic beings, not humans. But believe what you want.
you would also call Jesus an angelic being if you saw him do what I saw him do..
he has the keys to creation and he knows how to use them.

there is a reason he could disappear when men were trying to throw him off a cliff. or how he could get lost in a crowd who was hunting him?!
but he is a man, glorified with the right arm of the Father.. but still a man.
I never said and never meant fallen men did that deed with the women I believe e in Nephilim. I also believe no one has the slightest clue what they actually might be . but they did not come from euneches /angels Jesus says angels can't breed! I am sure Jesus is not lying!! I am sure he knows !!
but Jesus is a man, a son of a king .. a glorified man.. probably like Gabriel, and Enoch went to heaven also remember? he had to have been perfected to live there !! Elijah went to heaven folks!! he had to have been perfected to live there. How many others besides Jesus did the Father keep for his purposes ?
and these would have made excellent watchers.. and recorders of humans...
Jesus and the holy spirit is watching humanity right now using the eyes at the Father's throne.

but if anyone saw Jesus do that changing and viewing the throne ... they would say he was an "angel", but he is a heavenly man doing a heavenly business of laying track and making level paths
for his church to follow .
Jesus says Angels can't breed.. something was breeding with FALLEN women and God
thought it was a SIN.. IT SEEMS perfected men were breeding WITH imperfected women/ OR WOMEN NOT YET PERFECTED.. .... Men like Adam WHO WAS MADE perfect and call The sons of God.

just the story of Noah;s birth and the conversation OF LEMECH AND ENOCH..
Noahs birth proves men were something slight different before the fall. and
Noah's birth and subsequent suspect lineage and then Enoch prove that HE WAS ALL HUMAN.. BUT PERFECT.. .. Noah being all shiny and advanced in development made Lemech think he was from the watchers.. that was just a perfected human and Noahs appearance proves it.
Obviously The Father perfected all of Noah's genes , back to closer to our original form .. in order to make him be the Father of us all.
Enoch states SOMETHING like that.

Last edited by n..Xuipa; 03-30-2018 at 06:14 PM..
 
Old 03-30-2018, 06:46 PM
 
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ps I think what is going on that is so wrong is that men have the fall of the angels/ who can't breed mixed up with the . an event where perfected men fell in love with and married imperfect women.
I believe that Enoch shows also they were two different events.
but our mind makes when all one.. like how our mind makes Noah's flood and the bronze age collapse/ Turtle island event in one event men mock as Atlantis .. when in fact there has been more than one cataclysmic event in this world .. but you sure can't prove it my men's minds..
all Christians have the flood stuck in their head and a rainbow that means to them God cannot kill anyone by water ever again.. all atheists have billions of years of ice.. when there have been many such watery and fire and cosmic events in the last 6 thousand years.
 
Old 03-30-2018, 09:50 PM
 
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Traditionalists and philosophers of Judaism in the Middle Ages typically practiced rational theology. They rejected any belief in rebel or fallen angels since evil was considered abstract. Rabbinic sources, most notably the Targum, state that the "sons of God" who married the daughters of men were merely human beings of exalted social station. They have also been considered as pagan royalty or members of nobility who, out of lust, married women from the general population. Other variations of this interpretation define these "sons of God" as tyrannical Ancient Near Eastern kings who were honored as divine rulers, engaging in polygamous behavior. No matter the variation in views, the primary concept by Jewish rationalists is that the "sons of God" were of human origin.

Most notable Jewish writers in support for the view of human "sons of God" were Saadia, Rashi, Lekah Tob, Midrash Aggada, Joseph Bekor Shor, Abraham ibn Ezra, Maimonides, David Kimhi, Nahmanides, Hizkuni, Bahya Ashur, Gersonides, Shimeon ben Yochai and Hillel ben Samuel.

Ibn Ezra reasoned that the "sons of God" were men who possessed divine power, by means of astrological knowledge, able to beget children of unusual size and strength.

Jewish commentator Isaac Abrabanel considered the aggadot on Genesis 6 to have referred to some secret doctrine and was not to be taken literally. Abrabanel later joined Nahmanides and Levi ben Gerson in promoting the concept that the "sons of God" were the older generations who were closer to physical perfection, as Adam and Eve were perfect. Though there are variations of this view, the primary idea was that Adam and Eve's perfect attributes were passed down from generation to generation. However, as each generation passed, their perfect physical attributes diminished. Thus, the early generations were mightier than the succeeding ones. The physical decline of the younger generations continued until the Flood, to the point that their days were numbered as stated in Genesis 6:3. It was immoral for the older generations to consort with the younger generations, whereby puny women begot unusually large children. Nephilim was even considered a stature.

Jacob Anatoli and Isaac Arama viewed the groups and events in Genesis 6:1-4 as an allegory, primarily for the sin of lust that declined man's higher nature. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_God
 
Old 03-30-2018, 10:16 PM
 
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Who or what exactly are the benei elokim? Who are the nephilim? How are they related to each other? And what does it all mean?

One thing benei elokim does not mean is “sons of G‑d.” In fact, Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai would “curse” anyone who translated the term benei elokim as the “sons of G‑d.”1 The word elokim in Scripture, while generally referring to G‑d, is in essence merely an expression of authority.2 Similarly, the term benei does not necessarily mean “sons,” but is often just a title. Benei chorin, for example, means those who are free—not “sons of freedom.”
Nephilim seems to be derived from the verb-root naphal, meaning “fall.” From where did they fall? Are they the same as the benei elokim? And if so, why are they called by two names?
The Midrash and commentaries offer three explanations: - https://www.chabad.org/parshah/artic...nts-or-Men.htm
 
Old 03-31-2018, 08:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Who or what exactly are the benei elokim? Who are the nephilim? How are they related to each other? And what does it all mean?

One thing benei elokim does not mean is “sons of G‑d.” In fact, Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai would “curse” anyone who translated the term benei elokim as the “sons of G‑d.”1 The word elokim in Scripture, while generally referring to G‑d, is in essence merely an expression of authority.2 Similarly, the term benei does not necessarily mean “sons,” but is often just a title. Benei chorin, for example, means those who are free—not “sons of freedom.”
Nephilim seems to be derived from the verb-root naphal, meaning “fall.” From where did they fall? Are they the same as the benei elokim? And if so, why are they called by two names?
The Midrash and commentaries offer three explanations: - https://www.chabad.org/parshah/artic...nts-or-Men.htm
The Tanakh in English translates bən ’ĕlōhm in the following ways.

Job 38:7

7. When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of G-d shouted for joy? Jewish Bible (JPS 1917) - Eyov Chapter 38


38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Iyov (Job): Chapter 38


7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2738.htm


7. When the morning stars sing together, and all the angels of God shout? https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16440#


7When the morning stars sang together
And all the divine beings shouted for joy? JPS Tagged Tanakh | The Tagged Tanakh Chapter View


Genesis 6:4

The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of G-d came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown. Jewish Bible (JPS 1917) - Bere**** Chapter 6


The Septuagint which is a Greek translation of the Hebrew text translates bən hā’ĕlōhm in Genesis 6:4 from the Hebrew text which the translator used as υἱοὶ τοῦ Θεοῦ which in English is 'sons of God'.

4 οἱ δὲ γίγαντες ἦσαν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις ἐκείναις· καὶ μετ᾿ ἐκεῖνο, ὡς ἂν εἰσεπορεύοντο οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ Θεοῦ πρὸς τὰς θυγατέρας τῶν ἀνθρώπων, καὶ ἐγεννῶσαν ἑαυτοῖς· ἐκεῖνοι ἦσαν οἱ γίγαντες οἱ ἀπ᾿ αἰῶνος, οἱ ἄνθρωποι οἱ ὀνομαστοί.

4 Now the giants were upon the earth in those days; and after that when the sons of God were wont to go in to the daughters of men, they bore [children to them, those were the giants of old, the men of renown.

https://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/phys...-genesis/6.asp

The Septuagint of course is much older than the Masorectic Text which the Jews like to refer to as the Tanakh which was compiled between the 7th and 10th centuries AD.


1 Enoch states that these angels, these children of heaven descended to the summit of Mount Hermon. To descend means to go down. The summit of a mountain is its top. The angels descended to the top of Mount Hermon.

And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not 4 indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations 5 not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves 6 by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn 7 and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders: Samlazaz, their leader, Araklba, Rameel, Kokablel, Tamlel, Ramlel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, 8 Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaq1el, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. These are their chiefs of tens.

The Wesley Center Online: Book Of Enoch
This is Mount Hermon which according to 1 Enoch is where the group of 200 angels descended.


Mount Hermon, viewed from Mount Bental in the Golan Heights

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Hermon

Last edited by Mike555; 03-31-2018 at 09:18 AM..
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