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Old 06-24-2010, 09:56 AM
 
702 posts, read 834,113 times
Reputation: 89

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
So, suffering does end.
Only in the case of Christ. You cannot say that finite man will be able to endure that wrath in a limited time, like Christ did. To do so puts sinful man and the sinless Son of God on the same level, effectively eliminating the need for Christ's sacrificial work.

Quote:
I always hear eternity means eternity, it never ends, so Jesus incarnate abilities put and end to eternity so that the eternities worth (a measurement) Remember you can't measure something till something gets full, if something pours out endlessly you will never actually measure it.
From a logical standpoint, I agree. But remember, we're talking about divine ability here. That is not something we can figure out mathematically.

Quote:
Well, that settles it, God will stop the suffering and it is not endless. Because Gods love is that great.
No, it doesn't settle it. You are making the grievous error of equating Christ's ability to suffer for sin on the cross with sinful man's ability to do the same. To do that is to say that we don't need Christ because it is claiming that the suffering he went through to atone for sin is something that we, too, can accomplish through a limited suffering in the next life. This is why I so often suspect UR of being outright heresy. It degrades the redemptive work of Christ by making that precious work ultimately unnecessary. "So you don't believe in Christ now?" the universalist of your stripe asks the unbeliever. "No problem. You can pay for your own sins and end up in heaven, just like Christ."
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:09 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,847,284 times
Reputation: 644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
Only in the case of Christ. You cannot say that finite man will be able to endure that wrath in a limited time, like Christ did. To do so puts sinful man and the sinless Son of God on the same level, effectively eliminating the need for Christ's sacrificial work.

From a logical standpoint, I agree. But remember, we're talking about divine ability here. That is not something we can figure out mathematically.

No, it doesn't settle it. You are making the grievous error of equating Christ's ability to suffer for sin on the cross with sinful man's ability to do the same. To do that is to say that we don't need Christ because it is claiming that the suffering he went through to atone for sin is something that we, too, can accomplish through a limited suffering in the next life. This is why I so often suspect UR of being outright heresy. It degrades the redemptive work of Christ by making that precious work ultimately unnecessary. "So you don't believe in Christ now?" the universalist of your stripe asks the unbeliever. "No problem. You can pay for your own sins and end up in heaven, just like Christ."


You are the one trying to turn this into a UR vs ET debate.


I'm not asking you to believe a thing I believe, I have asked you to explain to JUNE what Gods love will mean to her if she dies not accepting what you believe the bible says.

I have already said it, do you deny that Junes suffering will never end, and Gods love will mean nothing after she dies an unbeliever (based on what you believe the bible says that is)

Are you an anihillationist, if so then simply tell June what she already believes that she will cease to exist.

Or are you an anihillationist that believes June will suffer not endlessly,. but possibly for a very very very long time before she ceases to exist.

I mean, just be honest about your own beliefs, if you do not want this to degrade into a UR discussion then stop mentioning it and explain what YOU believe Gods love means to the unbeliever that dies on earth not believing what you believe the bible says about it.
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:12 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,847,284 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samuelouerbacker View Post
You are correct in saying God loves June,but if she does not believe in Him she will perish and spend eternity apart from the Lord in hell,so yes John 3:16 hits it right on the head. God does not want this so it is of our choosing where we plan to spend eternity.


At least your honest that if June does not accept what you believe is the right intepretation of scripture Gods love will do her no good at all after she dies.
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:13 AM
 
702 posts, read 834,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
The truth is that you cannot just come out and say that you believe if June dies an atheist she will suffer endlessly and Gods love will mean nothing to her then, even if after her death she professes Jesus as Lord as philippians states everyone will do.
Based on how you worded the question, that is what I believe. What would God's love mean to me if I were suffering his wrath? I wouldn't be feeling any divine love at all. I say this because you speak of what June will perceive.

The truth is that you have to acknowledge that it is possible for God's love and his wrath to not be mutually exclusive, as demonstrated at the cross.

The other alternative is to say that God really, truly stopped loving his Son for that time that he was hanging on the cross. That idea is not unreasonable to me, since God actually treated Christ as if he were a condemned sinner. He was the Lamb of God, the great scapegoat for sinners. God treated him as if he were a sinner. More than that, God made Christ to be sin who knew no sin (2 Cor. 5:21). What love does God have for sin?

This is all very much a mystery, but no matter which view you go with, the conclusion is the same: The fact that God is love does not mean that he has no wrath; the fact that God is holy and just (related to his wrath) does not mean that he has no love. Universalists want to turn it into an either-or proposition and thus set up a false dichotomy, saying, in effect, "God cannot be loving and wrathful because the two are contradictory."

Quote:
Do you deny this is what you believe is the correct interpretation of scripture?
I deny that Philippians teaches what you assert it teaches. Confession of Christ's name does not necessarily indicate salvation. That was not the thrust of Paul's argument in that passage, and it was not his intention to address the extent of salvation in that text, either. It is another example of the universalist tendency to ignore context and do eisegesis.
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:16 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,847,284 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
Based on how you worded the question, that is what I believe. What would God's love mean to me if I were suffering his wrath? I wouldn't be feeling any divine love at all. I say this because you speak of what June will perceive.

The truth is that you have to acknowledge that it is possible for God's love and his wrath to not be mutually exclusive, as demonstrated at the cross.

The other alternative is to say that God really, truly stopped loving his Son for that time that he was hanging on the cross. That idea is not unreasonable to me, since God actually treated Christ as if he were a condemned sinner. He was the Lamb of God, the great scapegoat for sinners. God treated him as if he were a sinner. More than that, God made Christ to be sin who knew no sin (2 Cor. 5:21). What love does God have for sin?

This is all very much a mystery, but no matter which view you go with, the conclusion is the same: The fact that God is love does not mean that he has no wrath; the fact that God is holy and just (related to his wrath) does not mean that he has no love. Universalists want to turn it into an either-or proposition and thus set up a false dichotomy, saying, in effect, "God cannot be loving and wrathful because the two are contradictory."

I deny that Philippians teaches what you assert it teaches. Confession of Christ's name does not necessarily indicate salvation. That was not the thrust of Paul's argument in that passage, and it was not his intention to address the extent of salvation in that text, either. It is another example of the universalist tendency to ignore context and do eisegesis.

You can deny what ever you like about what I believe, it doesn't change anything.

If June dies believing what she believes now do you believe Gods love will do her any good at all?


Just answer the question.
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:20 AM
 
702 posts, read 834,113 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
You are the one trying to turn this into a UR vs ET debate.
I honestly am suspecting you just enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing. Even before I got involved in this thread, you were arguing for universalism--as far back as post #78. You were not the only one arguing in that manner, but the fact is that you were helping to make this a UR/ET debate even before I got involved.

Quote:
I mean, just be honest about your own beliefs,
I have been. See my other post.

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if you do not want this to degrade into a UR discussion
This is why I'm suspecting you just like to argue. This had already degraded into a UR discussion--with your help, no less!

Quote:
then stop mentioning it and explain what YOU believe Gods love means to the unbeliever that dies on earth not believing what you believe the bible says about it.
I don't think God's love will mean anything to them once they are in hell. How could it? How could they perceive God's love at all when they are suffering judicial--not remedial--punishment? The punishment in hell has nothing to do with love or grace. It is justice.
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:24 AM
 
702 posts, read 834,113 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
You can deny what ever you like about what I believe, it doesn't change anything.
Phazelwood, here is yet another demonstration of your lust for argumentation. You asked me a question that contained a reference to confessing Christ in Philippians, then when I said I denied it, you responded with the above. It seems you just want to quibble.

Quote:
If June dies believing what she believes now do you believe Gods love will do her any good at all?
Now you're moving the goalpost. First you asked whether it would mean anything to her. Now you're asking whether God's love will do her any good at all. No matter. The answer is no: God's love will not do anyone any good in hell, since at that time it is all about justice, not love.

Quote:
Just answer the question.
I did. You changed the question. Yet another proof that you just want to argue.
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:24 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,847,284 times
Reputation: 644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
I don't think God's love will mean anything to them once they are in hell. How could it? How could they perceive God's love at all when they are suffering judicial--not remedial--punishment? The punishment in hell has nothing to do with love or grace. It is justice.


There ya go.
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Katonah, NY
21,188 posts, read 21,056,759 times
Reputation: 22139
I am also a non-believer (I mentioned this in an earlier post) and have been fascinated by the answers here. I still can't wrap my head around thinking of this life as nothing more than a wisp! I do not believe in an afterlife - and I know that many of you find that sad and inconceivable - but to me - it just makes my life so much fuller and more interesting! To be honest - I don't think I want to exist for an eternity! I'm fine with ceasing to exist - I see it as a nice sleep at the end of the most wonderful day. However, this is not my point - I'm just rambling and I do apologize!
I have many religious friends and I think there are some of them that think, deep down, I am going to hell. However, I also have many religious friends that - even though they don't think everyone will be saved - do believe that I will be saved because I am a good person. I don't know if they are UR's or ET's as I didn't even know those terms existed until I found C-D! But I would say the majority of my religious friends believe that God knows the good souls from the bad. To be honest, it all makes no difference to me since I don't believe in an after life. I know, I know - open your heart to Jesus, how can you care you won't burn in hell for all eternity etc. I appreciate your concern - and I'd like to think it is genuine concern (sometimes it does sound very threatening - whether you mean it to or not) - but I'm very happy and peaceful in my beliefs. I think every single day is precious. I think life here is the most important thing in the world - well, I mean I guess love is the most important! I don't mean to offend - I just find it hard to believe that anyone would think of life as a wisp or mist - I feel like that belittles this wonderful journey!
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,688,207 times
Reputation: 1699
I kinda wanna hear a flat out "God's Love is useless to unbelievers" as well, phaze. Apparently God's love is as useless as an abusive husband's....
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