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Et says your damned forever June, well, that is unless you come to believe what an eter tells you to believe and then you had better hope you believe the right eter with the truth, because if you believe an et'er that is wrong, you are still damned.
ET is false and some are influenced by it, if you are not, that is fine, but many are, I want people to understand they do not have to live under fear through a message that says June will know peace either in this life or the next. If June is right and there is nothing after, I like that June lives peacefully now.
I can't prove the after life, what I do know is I have watched countless people in church pretend to believe they have peace when they do not. It is because of the uncertainty of their own teachings et'ers deny.
What is certain, is June can live peacfully now because whether June believes or not, the journey is to perfection.
Moderator cut: edit
Last edited by Miss Blue; 06-23-2010 at 09:20 AM..
Reason: no sense in beggin for an arguement:)
Please forgive, in advance, for the seeming stupidity of the question that June is about to ask. Lord knows she's been moderating this subforum since it's inception, but lately there is one aspect that somewhat rather baffles her...
There is no shortage of "ET vs. UR" debate threads on this forum. What June can't quite wrap her little 'just June' heathen mind around is the nature of what these threads are really all about: the after life. Now granted, June may not exactly be a believer, but June's also aware of the fact that we are all very much alive. Time and again she can't help but wonder: What's the deal with "after death?" June gets it that where one is "destined" to go after they die is a doctrinal/dogmatic issue that is near and dear to people's hearts. June gets it that it underscores the basic doctrinal/dogmatic aspects of each side's belief system. However....
What is the deal with the ongoing draw to what, where, when and why AFTER one dies? What about now, while one is still alive? June supposes her real question underscores the notion that while one is still walking the face of this earth as a Christian, that there would be some far more essential and far reaching issues at hand to be dealt with than "after death." She can't help but wonder at times whether the "where one goes after death" isn't a diversion from the larger issues of real life....If she is wrong in that, please: feel free to tell her. She's just somewhat taken, this morning, by this ongoing issue of where one goes after they are no longer here...
--Because you're all here, NOW. --That means that there is much to be done, much to be enjoyed, much to be appreciated, and much to clarify in order to engage in one's own life as a Christian. (Or so June would imagine?) June fully acknowledges/realizes that accordingly, due to her little 'just June' heathen status, that she's on the "fast tract to hell" but in the meantime, June's not done yet. June's got stuff to do, and a whole lot of living left to do! June wishes to not only enjoy her life, but to contribute some little something in terms of how she lives her life, NOW, and not be diverted or derailed by where she ends up later on. (Please forgive her stupidity in this, but truly, folks: Does not the intense focus on who goes where and why after death almost serve a purpose of taking away and negating what life as a Christian is, or means, in the present?)
So to anyone who cares to respond, please:
Help the little heathen better understand: Isn't it life as lived, now, that also counts? June may not be "saved" but she sure knows how to "save" that which is precious, beloved, and most essential in her own life....Such that there is precious meaning in her life now, and meaning that is meant to be lived. --What about everyone else?
Lastly, as losely translated/paraphrased in the Messsage, although only indirectly applicable to this post, this: "The Messiah has made things up between us so that we're now together on this, both non-Jewish outsiders and Jewish insiders. He tore down the wall we used to keep each other at a distance....Instead of continuing with two groups of people separated by centuries of animosity and suspicion, he created a new kind of human being, a fresh start for everybody....Christ came and preached peace to you outsiders and peace to us insiders. He treated us as equals, and so made us equals. Through him we both share the same Spirit and have equal acces to the Father." (Ephesians 2: 14,16)
So why no unity in life, but only division regarding after life? What about life?
~To those who respond, thanks in advance!
Take gentle care.
I have wondered some things myself about the fight, in that no one, absolutely no one, is dead and in hell yet, who lives and breathes, and from my position, there is no reason why one single human being should need to be, but by their own, absolute, clear refusal to seek the Light, from their hearts, that lights all who come into the world, in the hope that they may seek, and find Christ, and so repent and receive Jesus Christ. To receive Christ is to be born again in Christ's one Living Spirit, and to receive Christ is to be joined to the one New Man, and live a life walking with Him, with Him living in Them, and they following Him.
May I please expound on the wall of partition which is broken down so that those who were near [Jews/Israel] and those who were far off [all nations/Gentiles] could both come near? Thank you, of course, I shall .
In the Living Oracles committed to the namesake people of the New Man name ["Israel", the Firstborn of the "one New Man/human being race"], the outer wall of separation was to keep Gentiles "out". To go beyond that wall was to go on pain of death -as a sign at the gate said. The inner wall was for the people of the New Man name, Israel, to enter into, who were clean by faith in the promises, but the promises were not yet fulfilled, and no person in Israel could enter beyond that wall, to get to the place where the Glory dwelt, for the same reason, except those who wore the garments of priesthood, which represented the "garments of salvation" -to be got in the future, from the "Everlasting Father", by adoption into His "New Man name", at the time of the fulfilled, Acceptable "once for all", Atonement of blood.
The priests of Israel could enter into the gates of the holies, for ministry in their appointed times, but only the High Priest could pass behind the vale, into the Holy of Holies, where the Glory dwelt, and only once a year, to rehearse the Atonement which was to come. The High Priest served in the office of Christ who was to come in flesh, and who would fulfill the Atonement which they rehearsed, serving in His office, by the "Oil of Anointing -Christ", once a year, until it would be fulfilled. -edited for clarity
The Atonement is finished, once, for all -for whosoever will. The vale was split, the walls were broken down, and whosoever will may enter into the Holy of Holies of heaven, which Moses patterned in the Oracles.
But no one can come in unclean, unwashed, without the anointing, and without the clothing of Salvation, which is the second birth.
Still, for all that, the ones garmented with Salvation [the adoption into the Living Spirit], cannot, in physical fact, while remaining in the "dead" Adam flesh bodies, enter into the presence of the Glory on high.
The body of Adam flesh we wear is the barrier that keeps us out, but the garment of the New Man Living Spirit put on by second birth which joins us to Christ, the One Living Spirit, gives us the access in that Spirit, into the presence of the Glory in heaven's Holy of Holies, where the Glory dwells.
When the body is adopted, as Paul expounded upon, then we who are garmented with Salvation by second birth in Spirit, into the One Spirit/Christ, and who have access into the presence by that joining, in the Spirit, will then enter in, in physical fact, into that presence.
We must be born again in body, into His New Man image, before entry into the presence and the presence into us. Meantime, we are, in Christ's Living Spirit, and are seated with Him in the heavenlies, in that One Living Spirit.
The Living Oracles teach us, in Leviticus 8, that when we who are made sons of the Firstborn, by the adoption, get the garments made for us [the New Man body], and put them on, then we enter into the temple, shut the doors, and celebrate our consecration for seven days.
Seven days in Leviticus 8 is an oracle for how long we will be shut in, hidden, celebrating our consecration to the priesthood of Firstborn, in the Name of the One New Man, "Israel"; and that happens only when we get the garments to put on; and that happens at the time of the gathering together unto Christ [Psalm 50], of His entire congregation: both the dead and the living all receive the garments of New Man bodies at that same moment [Isaiah 26:19-21]. The dead in Christ first, and the living in Christ, last.
We leave the world in physical fact, then, bodily, and celebrate our priesthood in the Name of the Firstborn Son of God of the human being kind. That Firstborn son is the Everlasting Father of the second creation/man, and He is YHWH, come in flesh of Kinsman to redeem us back to Himself, for the purpose for which Adam was made, and was ruined for, as a defiled vessel. That ruin is the shame for which Adam wears clothes to cover the ruin and loss, for Adam was made for the Glory to indwell, as a son of God [Luke 3:38; Malachi 2:15], a temple not made with hands.
Last edited by yeshuasavedme; 06-23-2010 at 08:57 AM..
To answer June: the core message of the Gospel is that one needs to be born again to have eternal life. That is why it is important to surrender your life to Christ when you are still alive. The URs do not believe it is necessary, and this is why there is constant debate. It is not about hell, it is about the very core message of faith, which is repeated over and over in the bible, yet it is omitted from UR teaching.
So, you will explain to June that this love (which you didn't mention in your explanation) amounts to what? What happens to June if she dies on earth not believing what you teach? More love?
Last edited by Miss Blue; 06-23-2010 at 09:25 AM..
Please forgive, in advance, for the seeming stupidity of the question that June is about to ask. Lord knows she's been moderating this subforum since it's inception, but lately there is one aspect that somewhat rather baffles her...
There is no shortage of "ET vs. UR" debate threads on this forum. What June can't quite wrap her little 'just June' heathen mind around is the nature of what these threads are really all about: the after life. Now granted, June may not exactly be a believer, but June's also aware of the fact that we are all very much alive. Time and again she can't help but wonder: What's the deal with "after death?" June gets it that where one is "destined" to go after they die is a doctrinal/dogmatic issue that is near and dear to people's hearts. June gets it that it underscores the basic doctrinal/dogmatic aspects of each side's belief system. However....
What is the deal with the ongoing draw to what, where, when and why AFTER one dies? What about now, while one is still alive? June supposes her real question underscores the notion that while one is still walking the face of this earth as a Christian, that there would be some far more essential and far reaching issues at hand to be dealt with than "after death." She can't help but wonder at times whether the "where one goes after death" isn't a diversion from the larger issues of real life....If she is wrong in that, please: feel free to tell her. She's just somewhat taken, this morning, by this ongoing issue of where one goes after they are no longer here...
--Because you're all here, NOW. --That means that there is much to be done, much to be enjoyed, much to be appreciated, and much to clarify in order to engage in one's own life as a Christian. (Or so June would imagine?) June fully acknowledges/realizes that accordingly, due to her little 'just June' heathen status, that she's on the "fast tract to hell" but in the meantime, June's not done yet. June's got stuff to do, and a whole lot of living left to do! June wishes to not only enjoy her life, but to contribute some little something in terms of how she lives her life, NOW, and not be diverted or derailed by where she ends up later on. (Please forgive her stupidity in this, but truly, folks: Does not the intense focus on who goes where and why after death almost serve a purpose of taking away and negating what life as a Christian is, or means, in the present?)
So to anyone who cares to respond, please:
Help the little heathen better understand: Isn't it life as lived, now, that also counts? June may not be "saved" but she sure knows how to "save" that which is precious, beloved, and most essential in her own life....Such that there is precious meaning in her life now, and meaning that is meant to be lived. --What about everyone else?
Lastly, as losely translated/paraphrased in the Messsage, although only indirectly applicable to this post, this: "The Messiah has made things up between us so that we're now together on this, both non-Jewish outsiders and Jewish insiders. He tore down the wall we used to keep each other at a distance....Instead of continuing with two groups of people separated by centuries of animosity and suspicion, he created a new kind of human being, a fresh start for everybody....Christ came and preached peace to you outsiders and peace to us insiders. He treated us as equals, and so made us equals. Through him we both share the same Spirit and have equal acces to the Father." (Ephesians 2: 14,16)
So why no unity in life, but only division regarding after life? What about life?
~To those who respond, thanks in advance!
Take gentle care.
Good Morning June......not a stupid question at all. I'm truly am so glad you asked.
As a Christian, I attribute everything I am...everything I say...and everything I do to God, and His Word, Jesus Christ...my Savior and Lord. I've spent the better part of my life, 23 years, growing and learning...maturing and learning some more, STILL!...through whatever means God thought necessary to bring me to where I am today...NOW in Him>...IN Him...<and that is important to note here.
I am a disciple of Jesus Christ June...I follow God's Holy Word along a path where He teaches me, that in order to live a life that represents WHO Jesus is in me...and who I am IN Jesus, I must live and walk, as closely as I can, as Jesus lived and walked when he was here on earth...and I am instructed to "Go out!"...and preach the Gospel...so everything I do is centered around this one instruction...actually it is a mandate..."The Great Commission"...if you will...and I have agreed, in my heart, to perform these services to Him to the very best of my ability...being human...still. This is how He teaches me...through teaching others. I learn by teaching others. What I give, returns to me more than all the money in the world could purchase. I have this intense desire to do all that I possibly can to inform all I possibly can, before our time is up, the truth of God's Word, which will lead some into an eternity with Him in heaven...I crave it...(the spiritual rewards)...a hunger that cannot ever be fully satisfied.
It's the MOST important thing to know June, to a believer...to know where we, as spirits, will spend our eternity...because we are spirits...wrapped up in this earthly flesh, for a reason...for a purpose, and when we (believer's) realize, through God's Word, what is our purpose in life, we suddenly realize as well, how THIS LIFE...THIS PRESENT LIFE...is but a pin's "dot" on an "unending line" of eternity...that leads to an eternal existance somewhere ...and to a believer, "somewhere" consist's of one of two places...heaven, as in the presence of God...or not heaven, as not in the presence of God.
Which is more important...the dot or the undending line...?
I would say, BOTH. They both have their "purpose."...one leads to the other...and what is done and said on the "dot", determines where the "unending line" leads us toward. Understanding this principle is what causes the likes of me not to want only what this life has to offer...I see a bigger picture...much, much bigger.
This process of "life" as we live it, gives us precious "time" to get "focused" if you will, on whatever it is that we allow or CHOOSE to consume us...a "time for decision making." For me, what consumes me, what holds my undivided attention, is to learn as much as I can about WHO God is...Who He is in me...and who I am in Him...He is all that matters...<and THIS IS what causes me (as a believer), to look around me, at those who are closest to me...(those who I love, both within my natural family, and those who make up my spiritual family...my brother's and sister's in Christ Jesus)...and understand that they are the most important....and my purpose is to increase the number's of these brother's and sister's...and I "see" the potential of everyone who even in the slightest manner, tends to lean toward pleasing God in this life, and I strive to reach out to that "potential" in them to stir something within them to go forward, deeper into the heart of God their Father. My purpose is to increase the number's of those who will go on into eternity in the presence of God...to behold His glory forever...and this is all that matters...in the end...of "this 'present' life."
What we do here June, on earth, determines where we will spend our eternity...and I care where each and every precious soul spends their eternity...because God cares where each and every precious soul spends their eternity...and I have earnestly prayed for God to give me a heart that breaks for what breaks His heart...and He answered my prayer.............
...so, no matter how "beat up" I get...no matter how "wounded" I end up in this battle.....no matter how many "battle" scars I receive....none of it can compare to the sacrifice and the pain and the shame and the suffering that Christ experienced on the cross for me...and for ALL of us....I haven't bled one drop of blood yet...and it is all worth it if it brings just ~one~......just one more precious soul into the presence of God...hallelujuah! It is an honor and a priveledge to serve my Master.
Forever in His service...to love all of you enough to tell you the truth..no matter what.
So, you will explain to June that this love (which you didn't mention in your explanation) amounts to what? What happens to June if she dies on earth not believing what you teach? More love?
Let's me repeat: the core message of the Gospel is that one needs to be born again to have eternal life
You can research what 'born again' means, if it is unclear to you.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 06-23-2010 at 10:02 AM..
June, this is a great question, not a dumb question. I like to talk about this, not because of the afterlife, but precisely because of the here and now. John 17:3 says, "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." So, eternal life starts now. It is all about having a relationship with God, but that carries over into the afterlife also.
It is extremely important to know whether or not God is going to burn people consciously forever. Why? Because without knowing this, you can't fully know Him. As an analogy, let's say someone told me that my earthly father tortured people by setting them on fire. (This can't be an exact analogy because it is not humanly possible to set a living creature on fire "forever" because they will die.) Now, let's say I believed this about him, but I somehow still loved my daddy, talked to him, spent time with him, and did what he asked me to do. I told him what a wonderful daddy he was, and how much I respected him for being such a good person. All the while, I thought it was in his character to torture people.
Scenario 1 - I was right and he did set people on fire. I could choose to love my father in spite of this and try to ignore that part of his character (denial), or become distant and cold towards him (maybe even hate him) because I did not agree with what he was doing, or become hardened to the horror that people had to suffer and not let it bother me because I thought he knew best and they must deserve it for some reason. (Sidenote: Isn't this a little selfish? Is this loving our neighbor as ourselves?)
Scenario 2 - I was wrong and my father would never conceive of such a thing. It never entered into his mind to set people on fire. I had been misled and was confused all along about my father's character.
Obviously the only way I could truly know my father, would be to know this very important truth. I'm quite certain my earthly father never set people on fire, and if someone had told me that and I believed them and didn't even bother to ask him about it myself, I'm sure it would have deeply hurt my daddy's feelings.
(Edit: And if people were spreading that rumor about my daddy, I would want to go around telling people the truth so they would stop thinking that about him.)
I used to be in the denial category, and I thought it was something people were just not capable of understanding. When I finally faced what I thought was the reality of it, and didn't sweep it into the back corner of my mind any longer, I cried out to God and asked Him why it had to be that way, and that's when the Holy Spirit revealed to me that God would never torture people. Now I'm free from the bondage of that thinking and free to know and love ALL of God.
Hi June! Your questions are the same questions that I have! I, too, think that everyday is so important. I try to live each day to the fullest so that I can die with very few regrets.
It's very interesting to see the responses. So, from one "heathen" to another - great thread!
Let's me repeat: the core message of the Gospel is that one needs to be born again to have eternal life
You can research what 'born again' means, if it is unclear to you.
Let me repeat.
What happens to June if she dies on earth not believing what you teach? More love?
The answer is YES. but of course you cannot answer that question YES, you answer NO.
Oh just in case you've misunderstood, As one who accepts the label of "universalist" please stop confusing talk of Gods love with an assertion that anyone has arrived at that point yet.
Certainly I talk alot about Gods love, it is greater than yours, so I will stick with Gods love as I know that it will guide me much better than you can.
Do you personally know anyone who is actually "saved" -- none, right?
Please, stick to the topic. There are plenty of threads concerning being "saved" or not...this is not one of them.
...and anyone who asks, with a pure heart, for Jesus to come into their heart and teach them and guide them in the way they should go, IS saved at that point...end of discussion.......
...now, back to the topic....
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