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Old 06-26-2010, 07:10 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,060 posts, read 34,342,805 times
Reputation: 10472

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
We should change UR and ET to US and THEM. US=Universal Salvation, and THEM=The Hell Eternal Method!
Yes, please make an effort to come up with something even more disparaging than "Eternal Tormentor" to describe born again Christians. That's what Jesus would want you to do.....NOT.
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Old 06-26-2010, 07:24 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 10,013,192 times
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Finn, Finn, Finn.......we are ALL born again Christians, not just the ETer's. Like it or not, UR's are Christians too.
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Old 06-26-2010, 07:34 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,839,263 times
Reputation: 644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Yes, please make an effort to come up with something even more disparaging than "Eternal Tormentor" to describe born again Christians. That's what Jesus would want you to do.....NOT.

No problem, what would Jesus Do.


Mt 23:26 [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
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Old 06-26-2010, 08:41 AM
 
702 posts, read 832,983 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Salvation is through Jesus Christ in this life, right now. I guess you could apply the word "salvation" to what happens after this life, but it is more in line with reconciliation to God, and not salvation.
You are creating too much of a gap between salvation and reconciliation. Reconciliation is the bringing together of two who were opposed to each other. That means that what was separating them has now been removed. With respect to reconciliation between God and man, the offending thing that was removed was our sin. How does God do that? By having Christ bear the sins of the one who believes in Him and also by imputing Christ's righteousness to that person. God justifies the ungodly. That is reconciliation.

Quote:
The sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross is for this life, true? After judgment, there will be a price to be paid for those who did not accept Jesus as their Savior in this life, I'm just telling you that it's NOT eternal.
Which is why you are actually bringing another gospel, Ilene. You are teaching that those who reject Christ in this life will be able to pay a price in the next life for their sins. So now, for you, there are two ways to the Father: Jesus' suffering or the Christ-rejector's own suffering in the next life.

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Quote:
God does not do all that he desires. If he did, there would be no sin in the world--ever. This line of argumentation simply doesn't work.
You're kidding right??? God most certainly DOES and will do all that He desires....He is God!!
Then you have a serious conundrum to deal with. If he does all that he desires, and he desires that all people obey him perfectly, why, then, do all people not obey him perfectly? Could it be that God sovereignly chooses not to bring about all that he desires?

Quote:
God created sin, Jremy
You are heading down an off-ramp that you really, really, really shouldn't go down, Ilene. I'm not even going to answer that. The statement itself is adequate evidence of what serious error you've been led to believe.

Quote:
.......He created EVERYTHING and it is all for His purpose and pleasure. Without sin and evil there would have been no need for Jesus' sacrifice!! I'm still sitting here with my mouth gaping open at your comment.
And I'm alarmed at your belief that God would create sin.

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I was just going by what you said. You said, "Those who do not accept Christ now will go into the afterlife to some kind of punishment. It is not eternal as you like to teach, it is only for a time and it most likely will be very unpleasant." You said that they are punished. Christ, too, was punished for sinners. So, you believe we can be saved (reconciled to God) in one of two ways: Either through the punishment of another on our behalf (i.e., Christ) or by suffering that punishment ourselves. Unless you believe that the "punishment" that people will endure in the next life accomplishes something different than the punishment that Christ endured.
That's right, they will. God's wrath will remain and no one will be able to be in His presence until they have been "refined" by God's spiritual fire. Yes, Christ was punished for sinners but we are talking about the afterlife and what happens to individuals after judgment. For whatever reason, in this life it was necessary for a sacrifice to be made (Christ) for sinners in order to be "saved" or reconciled to God.....in the next life it will be the individual who does the suffering in order to be reconciled if they did not know Christ in this life.
I say this will respect, Ilene, but your words here are sufficient proof that you have deviated from the true gospel. You are teaching two ways to be redeemed instead of one.

This is the fruit of rejecting EP (eternal punishment). If the punishment is not eternal, then we, according to this teaching, are able to provide it ourselves and end up some time in the future suffering enough to make it into heaven.

What a blatant denial this is, too, of the very necessity of a blood sacrifice. Blood is the divinely appointed means of atonement (Leviticus 17:11), yet according to you, Ilene, there is another way: The Christ-rejector's own suffering in the next life.

All you're doing is effectively bringing the work of redemption into the hands of sinful man by claiming that they can pay a price for sin to satisfy God's wrath for it.
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Old 06-26-2010, 09:23 AM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,558,313 times
Reputation: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Yes, please make an effort to come up with something even more disparaging than "Eternal Tormentor" to describe born again Christians. That's what Jesus would want you to do.....NOT.
Is eternal torment for the vast majority of the world not what you preach here?
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Old 06-26-2010, 09:29 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,170,747 times
Reputation: 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
You are creating too much of a gap between salvation and reconciliation. Reconciliation is the bringing together of two who were opposed to each other. That means that what was separating them has now been removed. With respect to reconciliation between God and man, the offending thing that was removed was our sin. How does God do that? By having Christ bear the sins of the one who believes in Him and also by imputing Christ's righteousness to that person. God justifies the ungodly. That is reconciliation.

Which is why you are actually bringing another gospel, Ilene. You are teaching that those who reject Christ in this life will be able to pay a price in the next life for their sins. So now, for you, there are two ways to the Father: Jesus' suffering or the Christ-rejector's own suffering in the next life.

Then you have a serious conundrum to deal with. If he does all that he desires, and he desires that all people obey him perfectly, why, then, do all people not obey him perfectly? Could it be that God sovereignly chooses not to bring about all that he desires?

You are heading down an off-ramp that you really, really, really shouldn't go down, Ilene. I'm not even going to answer that. The statement itself is adequate evidence of what serious error you've been led to believe.

And I'm alarmed at your belief that God would create sin.

I say this will respect, Ilene, but your words here are sufficient proof that you have deviated from the true gospel. You are teaching two ways to be redeemed instead of one.

This is the fruit of rejecting EP (eternal punishment). If the punishment is not eternal, then we, according to this teaching, are able to provide it ourselves and end up some time in the future suffering enough to make it into heaven.

What a blatant denial this is, too, of the very necessity of a blood sacrifice. Blood is the divinely appointed means of atonement (Leviticus 17:11), yet according to you, Ilene, there is another way: The Christ-rejector's own suffering in the next life.

All you're doing is effectively bringing the work of redemption into the hands of sinful man by claiming that they can pay a price for sin to satisfy God's wrath for it.
Very eloquently said.
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Old 06-26-2010, 09:30 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,060 posts, read 34,342,805 times
Reputation: 10472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Again, we agree more than you realize. I also believe that mankind has already been reconciled in Christ, for HIS faithfulness/sacrifice/death/resurrection. He said, "It is finished." So, I believe the reconciliation was on the cross, but the full process has not been carried out as of yet. It will happen in the fullness of time/at the appointed time/each in his own order/etc.
One task is finished, but not everything is done yet. One day God will say "It is done":

He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
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Old 06-26-2010, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,060 posts, read 34,342,805 times
Reputation: 10472
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
Is eternal torment for the vast majority of the world not what you preach here?
I preach John 3:16, the message of salvation through faith in Christ.
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Old 06-26-2010, 09:46 AM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,558,313 times
Reputation: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

If you wish to take this literally,then what about decent people who never heard the Gospel,like say,most of the Americas for the first 3/4 of the Christian era?This condemns evil sinners who have committed specific sins.What about the good hearted and decent people in these places?
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Old 06-26-2010, 09:48 AM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,558,313 times
Reputation: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I preach John 3:16, the message of salvation through faith in Christ.
Does not what you preach include eternal torment?
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