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Old 06-23-2010, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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June,

AIONIOS ZOE - Everlasting Life, has really, in reality, very little to do with quantity, but rather a quality of life, and that is to be with God, as Adam was supposed to be, but failed in doing so, that Christ redeemed, and that we, those who believe in Christ, have with Him now....in this life...which is eternal with Christ and our Lord God the Father. Without any of this, we are destined to die, forever.

Put it to you this way, I will never die. For Christ is always, and so am I, now that I believe in Him.
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Old 06-23-2010, 01:50 PM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,877,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
What is the deal with the ongoing draw to what, where, when and why AFTER one dies? What about now, while one is still alive? June supposes her real question underscores the notion that while one is still walking the face of this earth as a Christian, that there would be some far more essential and far reaching issues at hand to be dealt with than "after death." She can't help but wonder at times whether the "where one goes after death" isn't a diversion from the larger issues of real life....If she is wrong in that, please: feel free to tell her. She's just somewhat taken, this morning, by this ongoing issue of where one goes after they are no longer here...

--Because you're all here, NOW. --That means that there is much to be done, much to be enjoyed, much to be appreciated, and much to clarify in order to engage in one's own life as a Christian. (Or so June would imagine?)

June fully acknowledges/realizes that accordingly, due to her little 'just June' heathen status, that she's on the "fast tract to hell" but in the meantime, June's not done yet. June's got stuff to do, and a whole lot of living left to do! June wishes to not only enjoy her life, but to contribute some little something in terms of how she lives her life, NOW, and not be diverted or derailed by where she ends up later on. (Please forgive her stupidity in this, but truly, folks: Does not the intense focus on who goes where and why after death almost serve a purpose of taking away and negating what life as a Christian is, or means, in the present?)

So to anyone who cares to respond, please:

Help the little heathen better understand: Isn't it life as lived, now, that also counts? June may not be "saved" but she sure knows how to "save" that which is precious, beloved, and most essential in her own life....Such that there is precious meaning in her life now, and meaning that is meant to be lived. --What about everyone else?
To answer your main question, yes, life "as lived now" most certainly does count. Much of what you have written above, however, appears to be rooted in a fundamental misunderstanding about the Christian view of the relationship between time ("our mortal lives") and eternity. Allow me to explain:

Thinking about our actions in the "here and now" in the light of eternity is not a "diversion from" or "negation of" life for an orthodox Christian; in fact, it is exactly the opposite.

From an orthodox Christian point of view the only purpose of life is to do God's will; how one "live's one's life" must always be viewed in terms of accountability to God, the creator. There is nothing more "far reaching" or "essential" or "larger" than this. With surrender to this Truth can come great joy--"enjoyment" even--but also great restriction and great suffering.

Moreover, I don't where you got the idea that it is part of Christian doctrine to believe someone to be "on the fast track to hell" because they are an atheist--maybe you were just being self-effacing and/or sarcastic. If not, and you seriously think this is part of orthodox Christian doctrine, you might benefit from reading up on what some of the great thinkers of the Christian tradition believe about these kinds of things. Cardinal Newman and G. K. Chesterton, for example, are both quite accessible to the postmodern mind, and would probably give you a lot to think about as regards the serious questions you have posed on this thread.

Finally--from the orthodox Christian point of view "Universal salvation" is a dangerous heresy. This is probably why the orthodox Christians who post here will seem "obsessive" about it, as they would any heresy.
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:08 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
4,244 posts, read 657,705 times
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June,

For me not believing in an eternal state of eternal torment has been a result of seeking who God is, what his plan is......

Can I ask you, Can you imagine that if you were a believer in God and Jesus as the Son of God and there was an afterlife and you truly believed in that afterlife, can you honestly tell me if you would have concern, compassion, for all those who did not believe as you do? If they were to be tortured eternally would it seem just to you? ....... would it seem to clash with the fruits of the spirit love, joy, peace, patience etc?

There are billions and billions born who have not believed and if eternal torment were to be true what Hitler did to the Jews would pale into insignificance to what would happen to most of humanity just for being created human.........
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:13 PM
 
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Default Time & Eternity

An alternative response to June 7 would be as follows:

There is a saying "a picture is worth a thousand words."

1. If you've ever watched the BBC production of "Brideshead Revisited," think back on Lord Marchmain's deathbed scene. I was a teenager when I watched that show, but the series, and that scene in particular, did a lot to explain to me the Christian understanding of the relationship between time and eternity.

2. I've had the privilege of seeing some cadaver tombs whilst visting churches. Here are some pictures and information about them:

Vitrearum's Church Art: A taste for the macabre - late medieval cadaver tombs
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:48 PM
 
2,946 posts, read 4,879,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
I think that for those of us who do not believe in eternal torture, it makes sense to live our lives now with joy and going about doing good as Jesus did, and not thinking too much about the afterlife since we know God is in control of that. For those who believe in ET, nothing else should matter. If you have a choice of spending a pretty day at the lake with your family, or even feeding a hungry person, vs. saying something to prevent another person from burning for eternity, the choice should be clear. If the believers in ET really took it to heart, they wouldn't have time for anything else because nothing else would matter.
Excellent point..but obviously they take vacations an enjoy life while they think others are headed for an afterlife of torture,eventhough they think it is up to them to spread the word to the unbelievers.Let`s see..spend the day at the beach lying in the sun,sipping on a cold beverage,enjoying my liesure time or spreading God`s word and trying to help save all of those ignorant lost people that I pretend to love and care so much about! Oh the hypocrisy of it all!
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:51 PM
 
8,108 posts, read 7,080,049 times
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Correction is not favorite heavenly attribute, but Holy Spirit has an anoiting gift for correction for thoughs who do not condemn people ....See in the life now is our temporal life and ET has a passion for people to be blessed, in Christ and not, rob God of his blessing for people who reject Jesus dogma for salvation because of over doing the aspect of the love of God to the point of rejecting turning to the Lord the way the Lord Jesus told us to get saved, Jesus has many miracles and gifts for his Children that come to him and turn from sin and if people are taught that thay do not need God to be saved then Jesus can not help them, and his gift are not given and people will have to realy on the world for their life needs,,: See Jesus has a cure for cancer diabeties, sickness, hopeless pain, that the World does not have Jesus said `` My grace is strong when you are in weakness`` .... or Hopeless be Bless in Christ
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Old 06-23-2010, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Florida
63,127 posts, read 34,377,687 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
..spend the day at the beach lying in the sun,sipping on a cold beverage,enjoying my liesure time or spreading God`s word and trying to help save all of those ignorant lost people that I pretend to love and care so much about! Oh the hypocrisy of it all!
I see this is turning into another 'bash a Christian' thread. The mockery never ends, but it's OK fellas, because Jesus himself said this :

Mark 13:13 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
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Old 06-23-2010, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,266,191 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Am I understanding this correctly....your post, is about:
"What's the deal with "after death?"

or about

"taking away and negating what life as a Christian is, or means, in the present?"

What are you focusing on?
I think what June is wondering is why, on so many of these threads, are so many concerned with and fervently focused on what happens to everyone after death...there are oodles of discussions regarding this subject...and why are christians not more focused or concerned with how they live their lives in the here and now.

I have to agree with June on this point....if you search the threads, most of them are discussions about what happens after death, who goes where, blah, blah, blah...and considering NO ONE KNOWS DEFINITIVELY what happens after one dies (no matter how much one blusters otherwise)...it seems mindless and pointless. There are very few discussions regarding how one should be living their lives now, making a positive impact in the world, leaving a positive legacy for the generations to come.

Please correct me if I am wrong June.
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Old 06-23-2010, 03:32 PM
 
5,499 posts, read 4,576,738 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Please forgive, in advance, for the seeming stupidity of the question that June is about to ask. Lord knows she's been moderating this subforum since it's inception, but lately there is one aspect that somewhat rather baffles her...

There is no shortage of "ET vs. UR" debate threads on this forum. What June can't quite wrap her little 'just June' heathen mind around is the nature of what these threads are really all about: the after life. Now granted, June may not exactly be a believer, but June's also aware of the fact that we are all very much alive. Time and again she can't help but wonder: What's the deal with "after death?" June gets it that where one is "destined" to go after they die is a doctrinal/dogmatic issue that is near and dear to people's hearts. June gets it that it underscores the basic doctrinal/dogmatic aspects of each side's belief system. However....

What is the deal with the ongoing draw to what, where, when and why AFTER one dies? What about now, while one is still alive? June supposes her real question underscores the notion that while one is still walking the face of this earth as a Christian, that there would be some far more essential and far reaching issues at hand to be dealt with than "after death." She can't help but wonder at times whether the "where one goes after death" isn't a diversion from the larger issues of real life....If she is wrong in that, please: feel free to tell her. She's just somewhat taken, this morning, by this ongoing issue of where one goes after they are no longer here...

--Because you're all here, NOW. --That means that there is much to be done, much to be enjoyed, much to be appreciated, and much to clarify in order to engage in one's own life as a Christian. (Or so June would imagine?) June fully acknowledges/realizes that accordingly, due to her little 'just June' heathen status, that she's on the "fast tract to hell" but in the meantime, June's not done yet. June's got stuff to do, and a whole lot of living left to do! June wishes to not only enjoy her life, but to contribute some little something in terms of how she lives her life, NOW, and not be diverted or derailed by where she ends up later on. (Please forgive her stupidity in this, but truly, folks: Does not the intense focus on who goes where and why after death almost serve a purpose of taking away and negating what life as a Christian is, or means, in the present?)

So to anyone who cares to respond, please:

Help the little heathen better understand: Isn't it life as lived, now, that also counts? June may not be "saved" but she sure knows how to "save" that which is precious, beloved, and most essential in her own life....Such that there is precious meaning in her life now, and meaning that is meant to be lived. --What about everyone else?

Lastly, as losely translated/paraphrased in the Messsage, although only indirectly applicable to this post, this: "The Messiah has made things up between us so that we're now together on this, both non-Jewish outsiders and Jewish insiders. He tore down the wall we used to keep each other at a distance....Instead of continuing with two groups of people separated by centuries of animosity and suspicion, he created a new kind of human being, a fresh start for everybody....Christ came and preached peace to you outsiders and peace to us insiders. He treated us as equals, and so made us equals. Through him we both share the same Spirit and have equal acces to the Father." (Ephesians 2: 14,16)

So why no unity in life, but only division regarding after life? What about life?


~To those who respond, thanks in advance!


Take gentle care.
You never ceased to amaze me...God's artwork in the making?...

I take each day's challenge as my ladder to spiritual growth. I have a choice...to be an inconsequential chance and just return to dust...or be special with God who created me with unconditional LOVE.

I'm vain...so guess what I chose?
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Old 06-23-2010, 03:35 PM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,877,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
I think what June is wondering is why, on so many of these threads, are so many concerned with and fervently focused on what happens to everyone after death...there are oodles of discussions regarding this subject...and why are christians not more focused or concerned with how they live their lives in the here and now.

I have to agree with June on this point....if you search the threads, most of them are discussions about what happens after death, who goes where, blah, blah, blah...and considering NO ONE KNOWS DEFINITIVELY what happens after one dies (no matter how much one blusters otherwise)...it seems mindless and pointless. There are very few discussions regarding how one should be living their lives now, making a positive impact in the world, leaving a positive legacy for the generations to come.

Please correct me if I am wrong June.
This particular subforum, for whatever reason, has become almost exclusively a battlefield for this particular issue. My own preference would be for a dedicated subforum to be created where the US/ET issue could be discussed and debated endlessly. If that were to happen, this forum would change for the better.

I'm sure St. Augustine could have written more books, perhaps even greater than the Confessions, had he not had to spend so much time and energy battling the Donatists.
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