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Old 06-28-2010, 06:23 PM
 
Location: New England
32,273 posts, read 21,136,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
How about you read these first and tell me why you choose to ignore themt:

Jesus said that the unrighteous "will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Jesus said that people "will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" and into "the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,"

Jesus said that if a hand, foot or an eye caused you to sin, it would be better to lose it and enter heaven maimed than to be tossed into hell because of the sin it causes.

Jesus said "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
I will if you tell me why you have not plucked your eye out , or cut your hand or foot off .

Regarding eternal punishment , i will give you a clue, one of the words is mistranslated.
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Old 06-28-2010, 06:24 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,772,538 times
Reputation: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
If you read Paul's words, it sure does not sound like everyone will be saved. It sounds like there are those who will be in presence of God, and those who will be away from him being punished by everlasting destruction.

2Th 1:5-10 5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you
Nothing in that passage mentions people being set on fire forever, which is what many Christians believe this destruction is. Below is Young's Literal Translation. If something seems to not line up with the character of God, it requires more study. Sometimes it helps to read different translations of the bible, such as YLT. If you read this below and compare it to the above, you should see that it lines up with UR's belief. Remember, people who believe God will save all, do not say there are no consequences to sin. However, we know it will be just because God is just. Anyone who claims otherwise about UR is proclaiming a falsehood.

Notice "worthy of the reign of God," instead of "the kingdom of God." UR people generally believe that followers of Jesus will reign with him in the next age, but not non-followers. This doesn't mean they are never saved.

Then there's the age-during thing, which tells us that the destruction is not forever.

Also, look at these differences:
9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

vs. YLT:

9who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength
The first one says they are punished and SHUT OUT from the PRESENCE of the Lord. The other says they shall suffer justice FROM the FACE of the Lord. To me there's a big difference. I'd rather be punished from the face of the Lord, which to me says punished by Him in His presence, than punished and SHUT OUT from His presence.

Also, notice that once again, fire is symbolic for the Lord or His presence.

You are free to believe whichever translation you want to believe and what you want to believe about God is up to you. When in question and when there are differences, I choose to believe the one that lines up with God's love and His holiness and His mercy.

5a token of the righteous judgment of God, for your being counted worthy of the reign of God, for which also ye suffer,
6since [it is] a righteous thing with God to give back to those troubling you -- trouble,
7and to you who are troubled -- rest with us in the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with messengers of his power,
8in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ;
9who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, 10when He may come to be glorified in his saints, and to be wondered at in all those believing -- because our testimony was believed among you -- in that day;
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Old 06-28-2010, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,678,690 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Then read and believe His own words which I quoted for you.

Talk about wanton disregard for the scriptures......


Jesus said that the unrighteous "will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Jesus said that people "will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" and into "the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,"

Jesus said that if a hand, foot or an eye caused you to sin, it would be better to lose it and enter heaven maimed than to be tossed into hell because of the sin it causes.

Jesus said "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
Jesus said, "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Jesus said, "It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick."

Jesus said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
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Old 06-28-2010, 06:32 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,772,538 times
Reputation: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
You don't understand UR. It's not about getting another chance or opportunity. Jesus is the Savior and we were saved because of His death and resurrection. It is finished. It is a complete work of God and there's nothing we can do to earn it by good works or saying a short prayer. Eternal life means to "know Him," (John 17:3) so if you believe in Him you know Him now, if you don't, you'll know Him later. If you know him now, you are saved from the second death, which is the wages of sin.

UR never teaches no one is held accountable. We believe you reap what you sow. Most other Christians believe that once you believe you're home free and that's all that matters. They'll tell you all about the rewards and crowns, just not the other part. Which one promotes no consequences?

If God's wrath "remains" on him, then that means His wrath has to already be on Him to remain. What do you see as God's wrath on unbelievers right now? It's different for different people. Do you see anyone continually burning now? Then how could that "remain" on him if it isn't even on Him?

Please try to understand UR so you don't inadvertently post falsehoods.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Here is what Scriptures say:



Sally as a believer has eternal life. "A"
  • John 3:36
    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
Sally however incorrectly concludes (for whatever reason) that despite rejecting Jesus, God UR's everybody. What damns is unbelief..not letter "C"
  • John 3:36
    "but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
I am interested in your answer to the questions I posed in my previous post regarding this verse. (See red part above.)
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Old 06-28-2010, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Florida
63,151 posts, read 34,396,206 times
Reputation: 10498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Nothing in that passage mentions people being set on fire forever, which is what many Christians believe this destruction is.
The length of the punishement is not the topic here, but I'll let you know if we go into that topic again.
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Old 06-28-2010, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Florida
63,151 posts, read 34,396,206 times
Reputation: 10498
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Jesus said, "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
Isn't that wonderful. I heard his calling, and it was a life changer.
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:33 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,772,538 times
Reputation: 264
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow
Nothing in that passage mentions people being set on fire forever, which is what many Christians believe this destruction is. Below is Young's Literal Translation. If something seems to not line up with the character of God, it requires more study. Sometimes it helps to read different translations of the bible, such as YLT. If you read this below and compare it to the above, you should see that it lines up with UR's belief. Remember, people who believe God will save all, do not say there are no consequences to sin. However, we know it will be just because God is just. Anyone who claims otherwise about UR is proclaiming a falsehood.

Notice "worthy of the reign of God," instead of "the kingdom of God." UR people generally believe that followers of Jesus will reign with him in the next age, but not non-followers. This doesn't mean they are never saved.

Then there's the age-during thing, which tells us that the destruction is not forever.

Also, look at these differences:
9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

vs. YLT:

9who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength
The first one says they are punished and SHUT OUT from the PRESENCE of the Lord. The other says they shall suffer justice FROM the FACE of the Lord. To me there's a big difference. I'd rather be punished from the face of the Lord, which to me says punished by Him in His presence, than punished and SHUT OUT from His presence.

Also, notice that once again, fire is symbolic for the Lord or His presence.

You are free to believe whichever translation you want to believe and what you want to believe about God is up to you. When in question and when there are differences, I choose to believe the one that lines up with God's love and His holiness and His mercy.

5a token of the righteous judgment of God, for your being counted worthy of the reign of God, for which also ye suffer,
6since [it is] a righteous thing with God to give back to those troubling you -- trouble,
7and to you who are troubled -- rest with us in the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with messengers of his power,
8in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ;
9who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, 10when He may come to be glorified in his saints, and to be wondered at in all those believing -- because our testimony was believed among you -- in that day;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
The length of the punishement is not the topic here, but I'll let you know if we go into that topic again.
Huh? That's a really weird response to my post, to tell you the truth.
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Florida
63,151 posts, read 34,396,206 times
Reputation: 10498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Huh? That's a really weird response to my post, to tell you the truth.
Not at all. It seems you always go back to telling everyone how 'everlasting' is a bad translation as if everything revolved around the length of the punisment. Everlasting is everlasting, but I was not beating that dead horse, we were talking about what the Bible says about everyone not being saved.

Moderator cut: deleted

Last edited by june 7th; 06-28-2010 at 10:15 PM..
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:57 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,178,765 times
Reputation: 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
I am interested in your answer to the questions I posed in my previous post regarding this verse. (See red part above.)
Jesus says yes (to the red)

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:03 PM
 
Location: New England
32,273 posts, read 21,136,395 times
Reputation: 2284
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Jesus says yes (to the red)

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
He is referring to the condemnation of the conscience not God condemning us , because He clearly states i have not come to condemn the world but to save it.

When we believe our conscience is no longer under condemnation , it's been set free from it , unfortunately orthodox christianity is doing it's best to keep the world in condemnation.

14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?.Hebrews 9



We can never have a conscience free from condemnation while we do not believe .

Good night
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