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Old 06-28-2010, 08:05 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,772,538 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Jesus says yes (to the red)

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Right. God wrath "remains," and "he is condemned already" pretty much say the same thing, and no one is perpetually burning right now. So what is this wrath and this condemnation that people are experiencing now?

Edit: The next verse in that passage tells us that the condemnation is not loving God.

John 3:19:
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:09 PM
 
7,813 posts, read 10,710,873 times
Reputation: 3443
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
June,

What looks logical\compassionate is a lie by Satan...salvation for those who die as an unbeliever.

For some reason, tonight, this whole debate (ET v. UR) strikes June as both having aspects that are not altogether sound...In other words, both sides hold aspects that don't make sense to June. You see, long ago, and far away, "just June" spent four years of her younger June life getting one of her undergrad degrees in theology. (I know, I know...don't ask!!!) Granted, "just June" is a bit older now, but her "just June" mind isn't that far gone as to not remember, to know, what the underlying tenets that comprise "Christianty" are....As such, June's thinking that there are loop holes in both side's reasoning. In remembering what she does about what comprises the belief system of Christianty, June finds that it makes "no sense in hell" (pun, intentional) that atheists would be admitted into heaven. June has the funny feeling that the afterlife isn't going to have nonbelievers lined up to get into heaven the way that people were lined up in hopes of getting into Studio 54 back in the day...

Ya know?

If nothing else, from a purely theological point of view, it doesn't make sense.

HOWEVER:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
That's what I mean that they (the URs who have accepted Christ) are saved, and going to heaven.]
So far, sounds okay to June.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber

I am talking about those who they preach to, who have NOT accepted Christ. If an unbeliever hears and believes the UR message that they are going to be saved after their deaths, then they are unlikely to accept Christ into their lives while living, and they will end up in hell.
June supposes if some unbeliever wants to believe the above ^ then good for them. But it doesn't make sense. An atheist is hardly going to listen to such a doctrine and say "Cool. I'm goin' to heaven after I die." They simply wouldn't do that, as that is hardly their orientation. In short, we don't believe in God, or heaven. Or hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
I have NEVER heard of anyone going straight from being an unbeliever to being a practising UR. NEVER.
Carefull there, Finn. The fact that you haven't heard of anyone going straight from being an atheist to believing in, and practicing UR doesn't mean it doesn't, and hasn't happened.

Do you mean to tell this individual that there are "transitional" steps in between?

If so, are there equal so called "transitional steps" in between their becoming believers, Christians, who become adherents of an ET doctrine?

~She knows of what she speaks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinn_Farber
There are only those unbelievers who hear the UR message, and then shrug, and say "sounds like I'm good to go to heaven".
Jinn Farber, that doesn't make sense. Unless one is a totally "on the fence" and (please forgive June here) a pretty dumb atheist, June can't quite fathom any nonbeliever sitting back and thinking "Well, supposedly the God I don't believe in is gunna send me to a place I also don't believe in, so I'm good to go!"

Huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinn_Farber
This means that if the UR message is wrong, as it is IMO, then those people will go to hell because they were led to believe there is no need to accept Christ as their saviour. See what I mean?
Referring to bolded sentence: Yup, June sure does! --But the problem is that June suspects you are assuming far too much! Unless you are talking about those atheists who are seeking for "something" and/or questioning the over-arching issue regarding the existence of God. But in the event that they have somehow come to believe in God, and accept Jesus Christ as being "the God" then it would seem to June that there is a teensy weensy bit more than just what you describe.

In short, there is more to the message of what constitutes a Christian than just the "going-to-heaven-going-to-hell" issue. June is NOT minimizing that issue, but what she is saying is that acceptance of just the ET or the UR position regarding the afterlife is not all that constitutes being a Christian! (Hence, her OP...)

In other words, one has to assume that in becoming a Christian (irregardless of which "side" one "signs onto") that the individual has also read, studied, and to some degree understood and accepted a whole lot more of what they read in the NT than just the ET/UR apsect!

~And yes, that is real....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinn_Farber
And that is the reason why Christians here keep repeating the message of John 3:16, which is the cornerstone of Christianity and the Bible.
June could be terribly wrong here (and no doubt, probably is) but she always thought that the "cornerstone" of Christianity was:

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light..."


Take gentle care.

Last edited by june 7th; 06-28-2010 at 10:22 PM..
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:16 PM
 
7,813 posts, read 10,710,873 times
Reputation: 3443
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires View Post
Oh dear, June.

You are as sincere as you are confused

Hey, DreamingSpires, don't let her fool ya. June has the funny feeling that you might be surprised with just how confused she is not!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires
Well darn! June went and clicked on the link, in hopes that she would behold some gosh darn good romance, if not some gosh darn steamy romance (which June can say, because June's a "just June little heathen") only to find that the link didn't open/work!

P.S. Which is making June wonder whether she should cancel that book order that she made yesterday afternoon! j/k!


Take gentle care.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Florida
63,153 posts, read 34,396,206 times
Reputation: 10500
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
June supposes if some unbeliever wants to believe the above ^ then good for them. But it doesn't make sense. An atheist is hardly going to listen to such a doctrine and say "Cool. I'm goin' to heaven after I die." They simply wouldn't do that, as that is hardly their orientation. In short, we don't believe in God, or heaven. Or hell.



Jinn Farber, that doesn't make sense. Unless one is a totally "on the fence" and (please forgive June hear) a pretty dumb atheist, June can't quite fathom any nonbeliever sitting back and thinking "Well, supposedly the God I don't believe in is gunna send me to a place I also don't believe in, so I'm good to go!"

Referring to bolded sentence: Yup, June sure does! --But the problem is that June suspects you are assuming far too much! Unless you are talking about those atheists who are seeking for "something" and/or questioning the over-arching issue regarding the existence of God. But in the event that they have somehow come to believe in God, and accept Jesus Christ as being "the God" then it would seem to June that there is a teensy weensy bit more than just what you describe.
I am not talking about atheists per se. After all they have decided to not believe one way or the other. I am talking about people who are seeking, and who believe there is God, but they are not born again. 70% of Americans classify themselves as Christians, but millions of them are not born again Christians. They are Christians in name only. Many want to be born again, but simply haven't taken the steps yet, or don't know what to do. If they are taught UR, and they buy into it, then they are unlikely to ever accept Christ because they end up thinking there is no need to accept Christ.

Quote:
"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light..."
That too.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:58 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,772,538 times
Reputation: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
As such, June's thinking that there are loop holes in both side's reasoning. In remembering what she does about what comprises the belief system of Christianty, June finds that it makes "no sense in hell" (pun, intentional) that atheists would be admitted into heaven. June has the funny feeling that the afterlife isn't going to have nonbelievers lined up to get into heaven the way that people were lined up in hopes of getting into Studio 54 back in the day...

Ya know?

If nothing else, from a purely theological point of view, it doesn't make sense.
June, the way I see it, is that "atheists" won't be in heaven because as soon as they die they will believe in God and no longer be atheists! Paul was absolutely not a believer until the Lord appeared right in front of him and he immediately said, "Lord, what is it that you want me to do?" Paul said he was shown mercy because of his ignorance and unbelief. So, I think people will be shown mercy even if they die an unbeliever.

Thomas didn't believe in the resurrected Jesus until He allowed him to touch his nail-scarred hands and feet. Jesus said, "You believe because you have seen. Blessed are those who believe and haven't seen." Us UR folks like the verse that says that Jesus is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. So, it is clear in the bible that there are special blessings for those who believe NOW, but it's not clear what that means exactly, although it speaks of believers knowing him and reigning in His kingdom.

I believe God purposely left most spiritual things a mystery because we are not meant to know everything now. There are some basic truths I do believe, though, and the most important one is that God is love. I believe any doctrine that goes against that is a false doctrine.

I'll leave you with this. Maybe you've read this before, but it's a beautiful passage. I believe this passage teaches that God loves each and every person He created and He won't torture any one of them or destroy them forever.

Take gentle "knit-together" care.

Psalm 139:

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
17 How precious to me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 Were I to count them,
they would outnumber the grains of sand.
When I awake,
I am still with you.
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Old 06-28-2010, 09:00 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,772,538 times
Reputation: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Many want to be born again, but simply haven't taken the steps yet, or don't know what to do.
This statement demonstrates that even though most Christians claim they believe salvation is a complete work of God and people can't earn it, that their doctrine doesn't line up with that.
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Old 06-29-2010, 01:28 AM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,877,931 times
Reputation: 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Hey, DreamingSpires, don't let her fool ya. June has the funny feeling that you might be surprised with just how confused she is not!



Well darn! June went and clicked on the link, in hopes that she would behold some gosh darn good romance, if not some gosh darn steamy romance (which June can say, because June's a "just June little heathen") only to find that the link didn't open/work!

P.S. Which is making June wonder whether she should cancel that book order that she made yesterday afternoon! j/k!


Take gentle care.
You may be overreacting a bit here. I did't mean "confused in general" just on what you expressed in that particular post. For the record, I share your confusion, because I sure as heck still don't know "What does Jimmy believe--and why (or why not)?" (see my previous thread) in the opinions of ANY of the people here who endlessly debate this ET/UR thing. I can address it from a Catholic perspective, but that's about it.

To watch that clip you need to have "Quicktime" on your machine. It took me about five minutes to get it installed. It was worth it.
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Old 06-29-2010, 01:56 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,678,690 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Isn't that wonderful. I heard his calling, and it was a life changer.
So you admit that YOU as a sinner were saved... and that the righteous are NOT SAVED because only SINNERS need saving. Therefore if only sinners are left UNSAVED then no one would be saved INCLUDING but not limited to... YOU.

While we were yet sinners....Christ died for us. ALL have sinned.... none are righteous.... So if all sinners are being "targeted" for salvation.... why, again, do you think they deserve to be tortured in everlasting flames rather than being saved as intended?
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Old 06-29-2010, 01:57 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,678,690 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
For some reason, tonight, this whole debate (ET v. UR) strikes June as both having aspects that are not altogether sound...In other words, both sides hold aspects that don't make sense to June. You see, long ago, and far away, "just June" spent four years of her younger June life getting one of her undergrad degrees in theology. (I know, I know...don't ask!!!) Granted, "just June" is a bit older now, but her "just June" mind isn't that far gone as to not remember, to know, what the underlying tenets that comprise "Christianty" are....As such, June's thinking that there are loop holes in both side's reasoning. In remembering what she does about what comprises the belief system of Christianty, June finds that it makes "no sense in hell" (pun, intentional) that atheists would be admitted into heaven. June has the funny feeling that the afterlife isn't going to have nonbelievers lined up to get into heaven the way that people were lined up in hopes of getting into Studio 54 back in the day...

Ya know?

If nothing else, from a purely theological point of view, it doesn't make sense.

HOWEVER:




So far, sounds okay to June.



June supposes if some unbeliever wants to believe the above ^ then good for them. But it doesn't make sense. An atheist is hardly going to listen to such a doctrine and say "Cool. I'm goin' to heaven after I die." They simply wouldn't do that, as that is hardly their orientation. In short, we don't believe in God, or heaven. Or hell.



Carefull there, Finn. The fact that you haven't heard of anyone going straight from being an atheist to believing in, and practicing UR doesn't mean it doesn't, and hasn't happened.

Do you mean to tell this individual that there are "transitional" steps in between?

If so, are there equal so called "transitional steps" in between their becoming believers, Christians, who become adherents of an ET doctrine?

~She knows of what she speaks.



Jinn Farber, that doesn't make sense. Unless one is a totally "on the fence" and (please forgive June here) a pretty dumb atheist, June can't quite fathom any nonbeliever sitting back and thinking "Well, supposedly the God I don't believe in is gunna send me to a place I also don't believe in, so I'm good to go!"

Huh?



Referring to bolded sentence: Yup, June sure does! --But the problem is that June suspects you are assuming far too much! Unless you are talking about those atheists who are seeking for "something" and/or questioning the over-arching issue regarding the existence of God. But in the event that they have somehow come to believe in God, and accept Jesus Christ as being "the God" then it would seem to June that there is a teensy weensy bit more than just what you describe.

In short, there is more to the message of what constitutes a Christian than just the "going-to-heaven-going-to-hell" issue. June is NOT minimizing that issue, but what she is saying is that acceptance of just the ET or the UR position regarding the afterlife is not all that constitutes being a Christian! (Hence, her OP...)

In other words, one has to assume that in becoming a Christian (irregardless of which "side" one "signs onto") that the individual has also read, studied, and to some degree understood and accepted a whole lot more of what they read in the NT than just the ET/UR apsect!

~And yes, that is real....



June could be terribly wrong here (and no doubt, probably is) but she always thought that the "cornerstone" of Christianity was:

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light..."


Take gentle care.
I wanna know what loopholes or what aspects of UR don't make sense to June.

Can you help me out?
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Old 06-29-2010, 05:31 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,153 posts, read 34,396,206 times
Reputation: 10500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
This statement demonstrates that even though most Christians claim they believe salvation is a complete work of God and people can't earn it, that their doctrine doesn't line up with that.

You don't have to be on attack mode 24/7 you know. Once in a while you can defend your own faith as opposed to trying to rip others.

People hear the calling, and they answer, and God saves them. Some people hear the calling, but never answer, and therefore they remain unsaved. People are not saved by force. The salvation of Paul was a miracle of God, since he was chosen for a very special task, and that is not that way people are usually saved.
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