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Old 06-29-2010, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,440,195 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
All are saved when all are regenerated and refined. Thus the refinement for all and regeneration for all is necessary for the salvation of all.
Lego,

Can you provide me some scriptures to analyze this...no need to exegete it, just the verses and such.

For example:

What scriptures points to refinement?
What scriptures point to the regeneration and refinement of all?
What scriptures point to the salvation of all?

A simple 1, 2, 3 is good. Thanks.
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Old 06-29-2010, 09:29 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,624,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Lego,

Can you provide me some scriptures to analyze this...no need to exegete it, just the verses and such.
Truthfully, what would be the point? You've been provided hundreds of scriptures in the past. You see them "differently" than I do. You view them through the lens that God must purpose most of His creation to be tormented eternally. You don't even think God wants to save all people. You think God purposes people to be tormented forever. And yes it matters what you think, because that is the lens through which you interpret scriptures. I used to view everything through the eternal torment lens too. Then I realized I was wrong.


But that's beside the point. My post above was simply addressing your question of "why is refinement necessary if all are saved". The point is it is through the refinement that all are saved.
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Old 06-29-2010, 09:31 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,624,473 times
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Sciotamicks, if you want to understand UR, read some UR authors and the scriptural study they have based their conclusions on.

For starters:
L. Ray Smith - The Lake of Fire - Part 1 (read the whole series - 16 parts)
hope_beyond_hell
Merciful Truth

Read it if you sincerely want to know how can a UR think the way they do. You will find your scriptures there. You will find how the whole bible points to UR.
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Old 06-29-2010, 09:36 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,725,892 times
Reputation: 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires View Post


Manicheanism is a creed for which I have no use.

St. Augustine taught me well.
You highlighted this: "People are in hell here now and need to be freed from that prison."so I am supposing that you are calling that concept Manicheanistic creed?

I don't do creeds - creeds are made to oppress those who don't conform.

This is the reality of the situation "I will say to the prisoners, 'Come out in freedom,' and to those in darkness, 'Come into the light.' They will be my sheep, grazing in green pastures and on hills that were previously bare".
(Is. 49:9)

I know and am well aware that creedal Christianity has a long rich history which some relish but it's easy for me to tell the difference between the Spirit of Christ and man made creeds which were formed for political advantage and oppression. The reformists were just as guilty and it's an easy call for me to say that torturing/banishing/slaughtering those who will not conform is about as far from the Spirit of Christ as one can get.

I recognize the good things done by the historic and the modern church but like I said before - this doesn't make it God's best and if you ask me it is all stagnant beyond words when compared to direct anointing/revelation as in: "But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him."

I understand that some feel this leads to chaos, but really, how hard is it to tell whether a spirit is promoting selfless sacrificial agape love or not? It's not that hard.

As far as your comments about Oprah - I'll take an honest heart seeking to raise up and free the oppressed any day over a creedal system hiding behind pretenses of being God's established authority.

The fruit system is a flawless way to identify any tree.

Let me add this though: You being a Catholic and all - let me make it clear that I am in no way implying that I think you are personally are out of touch with God or are not following Christ. In spite of how differently we may view church history or it's creeds - your own heart and deeds tell the story of what God had done in your life, not the RCC or Christianity at large.

AISI Augustine had some good ideas but also some very bad ones as well. So again - it all comes down to what God opens your heart too.

Blessings to you.
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Old 06-29-2010, 09:44 PM
 
5,807 posts, read 4,795,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I will stop here. 1 Cor 15 and it's theme is resurrection, whether it be in group, as in the OT saints that died in faith in Adam, or the believer at regeneration....sown to raised, or the core foundation of all resurrection is Jesus Christ, but the message is clear, that it is those that are IN CHRIST, who recieve the glorious blessing OF RESURRECTION to LIFE. There is never any question as to what this verse is talking about. It is in no way directing its premise to those that are wicked, to those that reject the faith entirely, or to those that simply never heard of it. It is the blessing of resurrection to life for those that believe in the first resurrection...Christ.



Again, the context here is only that of those who are in COVENANT with God, those of the faith in the OT (Isaiah 45 - Israel/Zion) and those of the faith in the NT (Rom 10; Phli 2 - Israel Jew and Gentile in covenant)....and its premise is the ROTD and Parousia/Marriage of the Lamb and the Church- THE ALL IN ALL

The begging issue here, from what I have seen, and is happening right here in this poster words, as well as others, is that Universalism is cloaked in this fairy tale "post mortem" "corrective refinement" for the wicked, and although it preaches many truths of Orthodox Christianity, it imposes this extra-Biblical pagan concept into the mix, and the interesting thing is, it has different views on this state of correction that all are found nowhere in the scripture. I have yet to see one. They forget that the scriptures are a collection of God's inspired words to our teachers about THE COVENANT we must enter into, and the blessings and curses thereof that come on or befall us.

Covenant Covenant Covenant Covenant. Did I say Covenant?

Here let's look at them.

Burning Flame - See Lake Of Fire - Covenantal - ROTD - A Bad place
Lake Of Fire - See Burning Flame - Devil; False Prophet - A Bad Place
Malachi 3 - Covenantal - In the Faith - Levi - King Priests - Christian - Regeneration
Consuming Fire - Covenantal - Those of the Faith - Pentacost - Joel 2
Lake of Fire and Brimstone - Gehenna was fed sulfur to keep the fire going - worms never die - Body and Soul destroyed.

Have I left any out?

As in Adam, ALL DIE.
As in Christ, ALL shall be made alive.
No-one CHOSE to be born.
We were ALL Subjected.
ALL SUBJECTED, sciotamicks.
Seems to me a covenant has been put into place from the get go.

He is the Creator.
He is ultimately responsible for His creation.
Which He is.
He would never SUBJECT any of His children to something, if He did not have something better in store for them. If he did not have an ultimate WISE, majestic plan for them. How anyone can say less is beyond me. How anyone can look around at His creation and accuse Him of being a monster worse than any imagination could conjure, is beyond me.


I know you have a child. If you had another child... would you give both of your children a choice in something and if they did not choose correctly, would you kill them or torture them?
Why do you think you are a father in the first place?
Why do you think we have the ability to have our OWN children in the first place and become "Fathers"?? God is trying to TELL you something, brother. I guess you are a better Father than God?
Or are you going to say that "His ways are higher than ours..." ??


ALL means ALL.
and "fire" is a GOOD thing.
I used to work with silver. When you refine silver, you put the silver in a flame, the impurities flame up and out of the silver, the silver is being burned but is not hurt. Only the impurities, the darkness is what is destroyed. Fire is a good thing. Do you honestly think that His precious children are what will be burned up? My God!! With what Jesus showed on the cross... how could ANYONE think that??? With the LOVE that was displayed on the cross, that while we were yet sinners, Jesus layed down His life for us.... How could anyone possibly come to the conclusion that our Father would then turn around and do the unthinkable??

Wake up, people.
Stop blaspheming your God.
He loves ALL of His children.
And has a PLAN for ALL of His children.
Stop attributing acts of evil to our beautiful Father.
He made YOU a father, for a reason.
If we are human and love our children with an unstoppable, unfathomable love, how much MORE does our CREATOR FATHER love US????


LOVE, LOVE, LOVE...did I say LOVE?

peace,
sparrow
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Old 06-29-2010, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,725,892 times
Reputation: 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post

He is the Creator.
He is ultimately responsible for His creation.
Which He is.
He would never SUBJECT any of His children to something, if He did not have something better in store for them. If he did not have an ultimate WISE, majestic plan for them. How anyone can say less is beyond me.
It's SO simple - isn't it?
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Old 06-29-2010, 09:58 PM
 
7,813 posts, read 10,713,131 times
Reputation: 3443
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post

Perhaps I am dense... I don't get it. What does the passage in John have to do with anything regarding UR or ET?

You are certainly NOT "dense" Kat! Trust me, if anyone could make that claim, no doubt, it would be June!

--Go back and re-read the quote. It speaks to something that June would imagine both ET adherents AND UR adherents can agree upon...And, quite frankly, what it says about "unity" such that the "unbelieving world" wiould thus come to know/recognize speaks volumes...

In Jesus' own words, no less.


Take gentle care....
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Old 06-29-2010, 09:59 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,624,473 times
Reputation: 688
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
As in Adam, ALL DIE.
As in Christ, ALL shall be made alive.
No-one CHOSE to be born.
We were ALL Subjected.
ALL SUBJECTED, sciotamicks.
Seems to me a covenant has been put into place from the get go.

He is the Creator.
He is ultimately responsible for His creation.
Which He is.
He would never SUBJECT any of His children to something, if He did not have something better in store for them. If he did not have an ultimate WISE, majestic plan for them. How anyone can say less is beyond me. How anyone can look around at His creation and accuse Him of being a monster worse than any imagination could conjure, is beyond me.


I know you have a child. If you had another child... would you give both of your children a choice in something and if they did not choose correctly, would you kill them or torture them?
Why do you think you are a father in the first place?
Why do you think we have the ability to have our OWN children in the first place and become "Fathers"?? God is trying to TELL you something, brother. I guess you are a better Father than God?
Or are you going to say that "His ways are higher than ours..." ??


ALL means ALL.
and "fire" is a GOOD thing.
I used to work with silver. When you refine silver, you put the silver in a flame, the impurities flame up and out of the silver, the silver is being burned but is not hurt. Only the impurities, the darkness is what is destroyed. Fire is a good thing. Do you honestly think that His precious children are what will be burned up? My God!! With what Jesus showed on the cross... how could ANYONE think that??? With the LOVE that was displayed on the cross, that while we were yet sinners, Jesus layed down His life for us.... How could anyone possibly come to the conclusion that our Father would then turn around and do the unthinkable??

Wake up, people.
Stop blaspheming your God.
He loves ALL of His children.
And has a PLAN for ALL of His children.
Stop attributing acts of evil to our beautiful Father.
He made YOU a father, for a reason.
If we are human and love our children with an unstoppable, unfathomable love, how much MORE does our CREATOR FATHER love US????


LOVE, LOVE, LOVE...did I say LOVE?

peace,
sparrow

Yes!

Every knee will bow (not just Israel).
Every tongue will swear allegiance.
All will be made righteous through Christ.
God will have all mankind to be saved (not just "all sorts of men").
God subjected the creation (including all men) to futility, and will ultimately release all creation (including all men) from that bondage to sin.

Yes! If we are able to do good things for our children, how much more is our Father in heaven?

All will be made alive each in their own order. Yes, there is an elect, yes some will be reigning in the kingdom, others will be subjects. But in the end all rule (reigning) and authority is put down and God is all in all. Not "all in some".

God promised Abraham that all people and all families would be blessed through His seed. That promise has not been fully realized (from our perspective) yet. But it will be.

God will accomplish what He desires: sin will be abolished, death destroyed, all made alive, all made righteous. That is what Jesus came to do. That was His commission - to save the world, to atone not only for our sins but for all sins: to take away the sin of the world. Jesus does not fail in His mission.

Yes! God is the creator, and He is loving and responsible for His creation. God is in control and will accomplish what He desires. Scripture tells me He desires to save all people. So it will be, how could it not?
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Old 06-29-2010, 10:13 PM
 
5,807 posts, read 4,795,344 times
Reputation: 4303
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Yes!

Every knee will bow (not just Israel).
Every tongue will swear allegiance.
All will be made righteous through Christ.
God will have all mankind to be saved (not just "all sorts of men").
God subjected the creation (including all men) to futility, and will ultimately release all creation (including all men) from that bondage to sin.

Yes! If we are able to do good things for our children, how much more is our Father in heaven?

All will be made alive each in their own order. Yes, there is an elect, yes some will be reigning in the kingdom, others will be subjects. But in the end all rule (reigning) and authority is put down and God is all in all. Not "all in some".

God promised Abraham that all people and all families would be blessed through His seed. That promise has not been fully realized (from our perspective) yet. But it will be.

God will accomplish what He desires: sin will be abolished, death destroyed, all made alive, all made righteous. That is what Jesus came to do. That was His commission - to save the world, to atone not only for our sins but for all sins: to take away the sin of the world. Jesus does not fail in His mission.

Yes! God is the creator, and He is loving and responsible for His creation. God is in control and will accomplish what He desires. Scripture tells me He desires to save all people. So it will be, how could it not?

Beautiful!!!
Beautiful words full of life.
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Old 06-29-2010, 11:03 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,440,195 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Yes!

Every knee will bow (not just Israel).
Every tongue will swear allegiance.
All will be made righteous through Christ.
God will have all mankind to be saved (not just "all sorts of men").
God subjected the creation (including all men) to futility, and will ultimately release all creation (including all men) from that bondage to sin.

Yes! If we are able to do good things for our children, how much more is our Father in heaven?

All will be made alive each in their own order. Yes, there is an elect, yes some will be reigning in the kingdom, others will be subjects. But in the end all rule (reigning) and authority is put down and God is all in all. Not "all in some".

God promised Abraham that all people and all families would be blessed through His seed. That promise has not been fully realized (from our perspective) yet. But it will be.

God will accomplish what He desires: sin will be abolished, death destroyed, all made alive, all made righteous. That is what Jesus came to do. That was His commission - to save the world, to atone not only for our sins but for all sins: to take away the sin of the world. Jesus does not fail in His mission.

Yes! God is the creator, and He is loving and responsible for His creation. God is in control and will accomplish what He desires. Scripture tells me He desires to save all people. So it will be, how could it not?

Stop!

You fail again....Philippians 2 and Romans 10 have only with Israel, those in Covenant! Look unto God and be saved!

Isa 45:22-25 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall [one] say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: [even] to him shall [men] come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

You are butchering God's word!
You are creating a heresy!
You are telling these folks a lie!
You are adding to the words of God!

Isa 45:17 [But] Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
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