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Old 06-23-2010, 09:50 PM
 
7,811 posts, read 10,701,439 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post

Many are in bondage to fear. And churches keep those shackles and chains on people.
DISCLAIMER: "Brace youselves."

June actually disagrees.

Now granted, June is hardly, by any stretch of the imagination, a "church goer." (For reasons all too obvious.) However, June is not altogether unfamiliar with a church service here or there...She has friends who invited her to their homes, to their church, and June being "just June" went/attended on a (albeit, very few) ocassions...What June heard and experienced at those very few church services spoke more to life lived now, and can't recall a word said about who was going where after death. Given the fact that June can *shock* attest to the fact that she probably attended three (?) different church services with her friends in somewhat recent times, she can honestly say that she didn't come away with any sense of an urgent "debate" or even "issue" pertaining to heaven, hell, or whatever options may/may not exist.

In short, what June is saying is that she has this sense that the whole Great Debate is far more man-made, and man-driven in it's momentum. At least here. No one --in any church-- threatened me with "hell" if I wasn't willing to be "saved."

They simply welcomed me.

That alone tells "just June" something...


Take gentle wondering care.
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Old 06-23-2010, 09:56 PM
 
7,811 posts, read 10,701,439 times
Reputation: 3443
Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
Told ya...
June just can't go to bed without saying:

~She just knows there's a "trick question/point" here somewhere!

P.S. Remember the Eleventh Commandment, there, ans!
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Old 06-23-2010, 10:06 PM
 
5,806 posts, read 4,787,048 times
Reputation: 4303
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
DISCLAIMER: "Brace youselves."

June actually disagrees.

Now granted, June is hardly, by any stretch of the imagination, a "church goer." (For reasons all too obvious.) However, June is not altogether unfamiliar with a church service here or there...She has friends who invited her to their homes, to their church, and June being "just June" went/attended on a (albeit, very few) ocassions...What June heard and experienced at those very few church services spoke more to life lived now, and can't recall a word said about who was going where after death. Given the fact that June can *shock* attest to the fact that she probably attended three (?) different church services with her friends in somewhat recent times, she can honestly say that she didn't come away with any sense of an urgent "debate" or even "issue" pertaining to heaven, hell, or whatever options may/may not exist.

In short, what June is saying is that she has this sense that the whole Great Debate is far more man-made, and man-driven in it's momentum. At least here. No one --in any church-- threatened me with "hell" if I wasn't willing to be "saved."

They simply welcomed me.

That alone tells "just June" something...


Take gentle wondering care.

Hi June,
I totally understand what you're saying. But what you experienced is not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about churches welcoming people with open arms, etc. I'm talking about the stark reality of the core teachings of most of the mainstream churches. Once you get past the niceties and you move onto what they are teaching and spreading (please understand "they" is just in general, I do not mean ALL churches) then you will find something very rotten. And these teachings become ingrained at an early age for a LOT of people. There are many who attest to that. The fear and bondage they were put in, without even realizing it, from a young age. This is reality. This isn't the "welcome one and all to our church" kind of thing. I'm talking what awaits you as you sit, Sunday after Sunday and hear what is being grilled into people.

This is what I am talking about.

God can use whomeever and whatever to reach people, of course. I'm not "against" church. I am against the false message that so many teach. The message of a God who is LOVE, yet: Believe.. or BE DAMNED for all eternity.

THAT is what I am against.


peace,
sparrow
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Old 06-23-2010, 10:12 PM
 
Location: Out of Florida........
4,309 posts, read 5,581,800 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Please forgive, in advance, for the seeming stupidity of the question that June is about to ask. Lord knows she's been moderating this subforum since it's inception, but lately there is one aspect that somewhat rather baffles her...

There is no shortage of "ET vs. UR" debate threads on this forum. What June can't quite wrap her little 'just June' heathen mind around is the nature of what these threads are really all about: the after life. Now granted, June may not exactly be a believer, but June's also aware of the fact that we are all very much alive. Time and again she can't help but wonder: What's the deal with "after death?" June gets it that where one is "destined" to go after they die is a doctrinal/dogmatic issue that is near and dear to people's hearts. June gets it that it underscores the basic doctrinal/dogmatic aspects of each side's belief system. However....

What is the deal with the ongoing draw to what, where, when and why AFTER one dies? What about now, while one is still alive? June supposes her real question underscores the notion that while one is still walking the face of this earth as a Christian, that there would be some far more essential and far reaching issues at hand to be dealt with than "after death." She can't help but wonder at times whether the "where one goes after death" isn't a diversion from the larger issues of real life....If she is wrong in that, please: feel free to tell her. She's just somewhat taken, this morning, by this ongoing issue of where one goes after they are no longer here...

--Because you're all here, NOW. --That means that there is much to be done, much to be enjoyed, much to be appreciated, and much to clarify in order to engage in one's own life as a Christian. (Or so June would imagine?) June fully acknowledges/realizes that accordingly, due to her little 'just June' heathen status, that she's on the "fast tract to hell" but in the meantime, June's not done yet. June's got stuff to do, and a whole lot of living left to do! June wishes to not only enjoy her life, but to contribute some little something in terms of how she lives her life, NOW, and not be diverted or derailed by where she ends up later on. (Please forgive her stupidity in this, but truly, folks: Does not the intense focus on who goes where and why after death almost serve a purpose of taking away and negating what life as a Christian is, or means, in the present?)

So to anyone who cares to respond, please:

Help the little heathen better understand: Isn't it life as lived, now, that also counts? June may not be "saved" but she sure knows how to "save" that which is precious, beloved, and most essential in her own life....Such that there is precious meaning in her life now, and meaning that is meant to be lived. --What about everyone else?

Lastly, as losely translated/paraphrased in the Messsage, although only indirectly applicable to this post, this: "The Messiah has made things up between us so that we're now together on this, both non-Jewish outsiders and Jewish insiders. He tore down the wall we used to keep each other at a distance....Instead of continuing with two groups of people separated by centuries of animosity and suspicion, he created a new kind of human being, a fresh start for everybody....Christ came and preached peace to you outsiders and peace to us insiders. He treated us as equals, and so made us equals. Through him we both share the same Spirit and have equal acces to the Father." (Ephesians 2: 14,16)

So why no unity in life, but only division regarding after life? What about life?


~To those who respond, thanks in advance!

Take gentle care.


I want to leave you with this: I hear everything you say June and I understand. See, that's just it! There IS a way already provided for us, that shows us how we art to live this life here before we die! The BIBLE, it's our blueprint.........and we will be wise to follow it.

It's not called: Bypass Information But Live Eventually.....NO!
It's: Biblical Instruction Before Leaving Earth!

What you need to know, it's all in there! How we live this life here, determines where we will spend eternity, or not. It does matter June, it really does. Godspeed.


Betsey
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Old 06-23-2010, 10:30 PM
 
7,811 posts, read 10,701,439 times
Reputation: 3443
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
Hi June,
I totally understand what you're saying. But what you experienced is not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about churches welcoming people with open arms, etc. I'm talking about the stark reality of the core teachings of most of the mainstream churches. Once you get past the niceties and you move onto what they are teaching and spreading (please understand "they" is just in general, I do not mean ALL churches) then you will find something very rotten. And these teachings become ingrained at an early age for a LOT of people. There are many who attest to that. The fear and bondage they were put in, without even realizing it, from a young age. This is reality. This isn't the "welcome one and all to our church" kind of thing. I'm talking what awaits you as you sit, Sunday after Sunday and hear what is being grilled into people.

This is what I am talking about.

God can use whomeever and whatever to reach people, of course. I'm not "against" church. I am against the false message that so many teach. The message of a God who is LOVE, yet: Believe.. or BE DAMNED for all eternity.

THAT is what I am against.


peace,
sparrow
June hears you, and "gets" that aspect, sparrow. And June is the first to admit that she has a very, very limited "experience" with "church." June is aware of the fact that one of the most welcoming churches she was invited to attend was co-run by a friend of hers who in his 'heart of hearts' no doubt believes that without being "saved" and accepting Christ into her life, that June is 'destined' for Hades.

June doesn't deny that doctrinal/dogmatic aspect. What June is saying, however, is that it wasn't the central focus either in her experience of attending her friend's church, nor in any conversations that he and June have had. He is more than aware of the fact that June is a nonbeliever. What is striking, however, is that despite his extremely fundamentally-based, theological outlook and views, June has never been told, outright, that she should be "saved" lest she end up in hell. THAT is somewhat interesting to her...He has, of course, gone on to explain at length to June why he is a believer, a Christian, and in particular, a minister. --But June can't help but find it noteworthy that she has never heard any great emphasis placed (or for that matter, even mentioned) of her going to hell in the event that she didn't comply, and become a "believer."

...So in making note of that, she wonders, why?

Why would he NOT feel compelled to use June's after life destiny as a major factor as regards why she should become a believer; a Christian? He is as genuine a "Christian" as June has perhaps encountered, met, in real life. June respects him enormously; we have mutual respect for one another despite our extremely vast differences as regards belief in the existence of God. So June wonders --in a somewhat academic as well as personal way-- why it is that her "destiny" would never have come into play in any of our (quite lengthy) conversations? Is it only an "issue" for some? And if so, why would it not be an "issue' for all? Is "doctrine/dogma" a man made entity? Does "doctine/dogma" possess certain unlying, commonalities along the spectrum of denominational Christianity, or is it really that individual? In the event that it is the latter, then how is anyone to really know what is "the Truth?"

P.S. June is aware of the fact that to a certain extent, her questions sound somewhat rather niave; however, not nearly as much as most might think....

Take gentle pondering care...
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:08 PM
 
5,806 posts, read 4,787,048 times
Reputation: 4303
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
June hears you, and "gets" that aspect, sparrow. And June is the first to admit that she has a very, very limited "experience" with "church." June is aware of the fact that one of the most welcoming churches she was invited to attend was co-run by a friend of hers who in his 'heart of hearts' no doubt believes that without being "saved" and accepting Christ into her life, that June is 'destined' for Hades.

June doesn't deny that doctrinal/dogmatic aspect. What June is saying, however, is that it wasn't the central focus either in her experience of attending her friend's church, nor in any conversations that he and June have had. He is more than aware of the fact that June is a nonbeliever. What is striking, however, is that despite his extremely fundamentally-based, theological outlook and views, June has never been told, outright, that she should be "saved" lest she end up in hell. THAT is somewhat interesting to her...He has, of course, gone on to explain at length to June why he is a believer, a Christian, and in particular, a minister. --But June can't help but find it noteworthy that she has never heard any great emphasis placed (or for that matter, even mentioned) of her going to hell in the event that she didn't comply, and become a "believer."

...So in making note of that, she wonders, why?

Why would he NOT feel compelled to use June's after life destiny as a major factor as regards why she should become a believer; a Christian? He is as genuine a "Christian" as June has perhaps encountered, met, in real life. June respects him enormously; we have mutual respect for one another despite our extremely vast differences as regards belief in the existence of God. So June wonders --in a somewhat academic as well as personal way-- why it is that her "destiny" would never have come into play in any of our (quite lengthy) conversations? Is it only an "issue" for some? And if so, why would it not be an "issue' for all? Is "doctrine/dogma" a man made entity? Does "doctine/dogma" possess certain unlying, commonalities along the spectrum of denominational Christianity, or is it really that individual? In the event that it is the latter, then how is anyone to really know what is "the Truth?"

P.S. June is aware of the fact that to a certain extent, her questions sound somewhat rather niave; however, not nearly as much as most might think....

Take gentle pondering care...
Perhaps he has more hope about His Creator's plan than he dares speak aloud. Perhaps deep down, He knows that His Creator would never do to June what he himself would never, ever do to anyone and if he is just a mere man... how much greater is God's love than his own love?

OR...

perhaps he doesn't want to scare you away.

Both are possiblities.

There are those who believe in everlasting torturing hell who NEVER mention it. and there are those who believe in everlasting torturing hell who never mention anything BUT.
There are several reasons why.


Anyway, the reason why there is so much debate here on this forum, as you know is because UR is not allowed on most "Christian" forums. It is a ban-worthy topic. It is the same in a lot of churches. It's a ban-worthy topic.

The way I see it June, the churches who BELIEVE that God is going to throw people in a neverending torture chamber yet don't speak much about it... I have to wonder.. WHY?? Why, if that is what you believe, why wouldn't they be standing out on the streets warning people? Forget the bake sales and the fancy sunday hats... why on EARTH wouldn't you spend every waking minute trying to help SAVE as many souls as possible?

Again, for me... the message of Christ isn't so much about the afterlife as it is about THIS LIFE. That's just my opinion.

peace.. and I hope this made some sense...
sparrow
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:15 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,489,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
Perhaps he has more hope about His Creator's plan than he dares speak aloud. Perhaps deep down, He knows that His Creator would never do to June what he himself would never, ever do to anyone and if he is just a mere man... how much greater is God's love than his own love?

OR...

perhaps he doesn't want to scare you away.

Both are possiblities.

There are those who believe in everlasting torturing hell who NEVER mention it. and there are those who believe in everlasting torturing hell who never mention anything BUT.
There are several reasons why.


Anyway, the reason why there is so much debate here on this forum, as you know is because UR is not allowed on most "Christian" forums. It is a ban-worthy topic. It is the same in a lot of churches. It's a ban-worthy topic.

The way I see it June, the churches who BELIEVE that God is going to throw people in a neverending torture chamber yet don't speak much about it... I have to wonder.. WHY?? Why, if that is what you believe, why wouldn't they be standing out on the streets warning people? Forget the bake sales and the fancy sunday hats... why on EARTH wouldn't you spend every waking minute trying to help SAVE as many souls as possible?

Again, for me... the message of Christ isn't so much about the afterlife as it is about THIS LIFE. That's just my opinion.

peace.. and I hope this made some sense...
sparrow
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:35 PM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,876,134 times
Reputation: 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
June doesn't deny that doctrinal/dogmatic aspect. What June is saying, however, is that it wasn't the central focus either in her experience of attending her friend's church, nor in any conversations that he and June have had. He is more than aware of the fact that June is a nonbeliever. What is striking, however, is that despite his extremely fundamentally-based, theological outlook and views, June has never been told, outright, that she should be "saved" lest she end up in hell. THAT is somewhat interesting to her...He has, of course, gone on to explain at length to June why he is a believer, a Christian, and in particular, a minister. --But June can't help but find it noteworthy that she has never heard any great emphasis placed (or for that matter, even mentioned) of her going to hell in the event that she didn't comply, and become a "believer."

...So in making note of that, she wonders, why?

Why would he NOT feel compelled to use June's after life destiny as a major factor as regards why she should become a believer; a Christian? He is as genuine a "Christian" as June has perhaps encountered, met, in real life. June respects him enormously; we have mutual respect for one another despite our extremely vast differences as regards belief in the existence of God. So June wonders --in a somewhat academic as well as personal way-- why it is that her "destiny" would never have come into play in any of our (quite lengthy) conversations? Is it only an "issue" for some? And if so, why would it not be an "issue' for all? Is "doctrine/dogma" a man made entity? Does "doctine/dogma" possess certain unlying, commonalities along the spectrum of denominational Christianity, or is it really that individual? In the event that it is the latter, then how is anyone to really know what is "the Truth?"
Why don't you ask him, June? Since none of us here are he, we would only be speculating about his motives.

As for the record, his behavior toward you doesn't sound odd at all to me--but I have my own take on human nature which might be at odds with yours.

As regards your questions about doctrine/dogma -- Christianity is an Abrahamic faith and thus considered a "revealed religion" meaning it comes from God, not from the mind of man. "Denominational differences" in Christianity arise because of the differing interpretations individuals throughout history have put onto the source of those revelations--the singular exception here being the Roman Catholic Church where dogma is preserved by the Magisterium. NB: Some Protestant denominations don't consider Catholics to be "Christians."

"Orthodoxy" and "The Everlasting Man" by G. K. Chesterton could probably shed a lot of light on the questions you have about doctrine and the other questions that you have posed here.

Take Gentle Care.
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Old 06-24-2010, 12:09 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,260,824 times
Reputation: 17788
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
DISCLAIMER: "Brace youselves."

June actually disagrees.

Now granted, June is hardly, by any stretch of the imagination, a "church goer." (For reasons all too obvious.) However, June is not altogether unfamiliar with a church service here or there...She has friends who invited her to their homes, to their church, and June being "just June" went/attended on a (albeit, very few) ocassions...What June heard and experienced at those very few church services spoke more to life lived now, and can't recall a word said about who was going where after death. Given the fact that June can *shock* attest to the fact that she probably attended three (?) different church services with her friends in somewhat recent times, she can honestly say that she didn't come away with any sense of an urgent "debate" or even "issue" pertaining to heaven, hell, or whatever options may/may not exist.

In short, what June is saying is that she has this sense that the whole Great Debate is far more man-made, and man-driven in it's momentum. At least here. No one --in any church-- threatened me with "hell" if I wasn't willing to be "saved."

They simply welcomed me.

That alone tells "just June" something...

Take gentle wondering care.

And that is what Jesus would do !!!!
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Old 06-24-2010, 12:11 AM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,876,134 times
Reputation: 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
~If June was a Christian, she would hope that she could somehow aspire for much the same...Jesus taught what he taught, but he essentially left it up to the individual to accept or deny/reject his teachings...

Wise person, Jesus....


To the Orthodox Christian, Jesus was not just a "role model." He was God incarnate.

And yes June, you are quite correct--Jesus did leave this decision to accept or reject his teachings up to the individual. This is why there is so much emphasis in Christian tradition on the notion of "free will."

With that said, Jesus Christ also said:
“All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
READ MORE...

Great Commission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Battling heresy has, since the foundation of the Church, been an unfortunate but necessary part of the "Great Commission."

"Universal Reconciliation" isn't talked about or debated at most orthodox Christian churches any more than the question "Can you eat Big Macs for lunch and still be a strict vegetarian?" is discussed obsessively at the local "Vegetarian Living" meetup.

Perhaps this board should be renamed "Universal Reconciliation: Christian Truth or Heresy?" to accurately reflect the bulk of discussions that occur here.
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