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To answer your question about why we talk about our beliefs, one reason is because we don't like seeing God's character assassinated. If someone accused my daddy of setting someone on fire to torture them, I'd defend him, too.
You asked why we waste our time on the forum when we could be telling others besides people who believe in Jesus. I could ask you a similar question. Why do you waste your time on here when, if hell is a literal lake of fire - NOTHING ELSE MATTERS!! Why don't you get off the computer and try to make sure everyone you meet isn't on their way to hell? You asked if we should be out shopping or something? Well since we know that God has no intention of setting anyone on fire for eternity, it would be reasonable for use to choose shopping or being on the internet or getting a pedicure. But what about YOU? Are you going to get a pedicure and not bother to ask the person working on your feet if they are on their way to hell? What if they are not a believer and they die right after the nail polish dries on your feet? What are you going to tell God when you get to heaven? I don't know why ETers can't see the insanity of it, and instead fool themselves into believing it's true, but not their problem. If it's true, WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT IT?
Thank you for at least trying to explain this to me logically. I do appreciate your earnest effort at clarifying the Universal Soldier creed.
1. Why do you care if God's "character is assassinated" since everyone is going to know to Him soon all together in Heaven anyway? Time on this earth is just a blink of an eye in light of Eternity. That argument is disingenuous in light of your beliefs about eternity.
2. Catholics are taught to live every moment of every day with our eyes fixed on eternity--knowing that every thing we do and every thought we have will be judged by the Most Holy God and thus determine our eventual destination--and it will be Heaven (perhaps Purgatory first) or Hell.
3. WHAT AM I DOING ABOUT IT? Catholics don't usually evangelize by asking people "are you going to Hell?" For one, we don't know anyone's eternal fate in advance, even our own. We tend to evangelise via the "corporal and spiritual works of mercy." They are at the center of our lives in terms of how to spread the Gospel, which includes the Final Judgment. There is a whole list of them. One of them is "instruct the ignorant."
Thank you for at least trying to explain this to me logically. I do appreciate your earnest effort at clarifying the Universal Soldier creed.
1. Why do you care if God's "character is assassinated" since everyone is going to know to Him soon all together in Heaven anyway?
Because I love Him, and because people who believe God torturers others and tells us to love our enemies, cannot fully know the true and living God, which I think is sad.
2. Catholics are taught to live every moment of every day with our eyes fixed on eternity--knowing that every thing we do and every thought we have will be judged by the Most Holy God and thus determine our eventual destination--and it will be Heaven (perhaps Purgatory first) or Hell.
Universal Soldiers believe the part in blue above. We believe you reap what you sow, which is also a good reason to tell people about God. However, the part about two different destinations comes from a misinterpretation of scripture.
3. WHAT AM I DOING ABOUT IT? Catholics don't usually evangelize by asking people "are you going to Hell?" For one, we don't know anyone's eternal fate in advance, even our own. We tend to evangelise via the "corporal and spiritual works of mercy." They are at the center of our lives in terms of how to spread the Gospel, which includes the Final Judgment. There is a whole list of them. One of them is "instruct the ignorant."
Cheers
I didn't ask about Catholics in general, but I asked what you are doing about it. Since you believe someone might be burned consciously forever, don't you feel any responsbility to warn them? Not doing so would, IMO, come from either an uncertainty of the ET doctrine, a hardened heart, or that you are being guided by the Holy Spirit not to do so because it's false doctrine.
God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life....
Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave
Many people are martyred for their faith. It would be a lot easier for them to sit back and "enjoy the ride", but they want everyone to hear the truth so they risk their lives and many die to preach the gospel. What do you think about that? Do you believe they died in vain? I mean all are saved, right?
Too bad I can't rep you. I am right behind you here, friend.
I admit I am a bit of a cranky old Catholic. I never grew up being told the purpose of life was to "be happy" or feel "fulfilled in life."
When I read some of these Universal Soldier posts about how glorious life is and how happy they are basking in spiritual freedom (whatever that means), I think of Joel Osteen--and then I think this picture:
(sorry, cannot embed it for copyright reasons--you must click on link):
It isn't what is in our heart, it is what is in the unbeliever's heart...that is the point. We are not worried about our walk in life, or our salvation, it is about the one whom God regenerates from our preaching and teaching...a word regenerate that is useless in UR...because regeneration has no foundation in the faith of UR...if one was regenerated in Christ, this regeneration is the effect and cause of salvation and the primary cause for eternal life, something that the unbeliever doesn't need, becuase he is already saved, according to UR, so therefore, there is no need for regeneration, since he has eternal life.
Please forgive, in advance, for the seeming stupidity of the question that June is about to ask. Lord knows she's been moderating this subforum since it's inception, but lately there is one aspect that somewhat rather baffles her...
There is no shortage of "ET vs. UR" debate threads on this forum. What June can't quite wrap her little 'just June' heathen mind around is the nature of what these threads are really all about: the after life. Now granted, June may not exactly be a believer, but June's also aware of the fact that we are all very much alive. Time and again she can't help but wonder: What's the deal with "after death?" June gets it that where one is "destined" to go after they die is a doctrinal/dogmatic issue that is near and dear to people's hearts. June gets it that it underscores the basic doctrinal/dogmatic aspects of each side's belief system. However....
What is the deal with the ongoing draw to what, where, when and why AFTER one dies? What about now, while one is still alive? June supposes her real question underscores the notion that while one is still walking the face of this earth as a Christian, that there would be some far more essential and far reaching issues at hand to be dealt with than "after death." She can't help but wonder at times whether the "where one goes after death" isn't a diversion from the larger issues of real life....If she is wrong in that, please: feel free to tell her. She's just somewhat taken, this morning, by this ongoing issue of where one goes after they are no longer here...
--Because you're all here, NOW. --That means that there is much to be done, much to be enjoyed, much to be appreciated, and much to clarify in order to engage in one's own life as a Christian. (Or so June would imagine?) June fully acknowledges/realizes that accordingly, due to her little 'just June' heathen status, that she's on the "fast tract to hell" but in the meantime, June's not done yet. June's got stuff to do, and a whole lot of living left to do! June wishes to not only enjoy her life, but to contribute some little something in terms of how she lives her life, NOW, and not be diverted or derailed by where she ends up later on. (Please forgive her stupidity in this, but truly, folks: Does not the intense focus on who goes where and why after death almost serve a purpose of taking away and negating what life as a Christian is, or means, in the present?)
So to anyone who cares to respond, please:
Help the little heathen better understand: Isn't it life as lived, now, that also counts? June may not be "saved" but she sure knows how to "save" that which is precious, beloved, and most essential in her own life....Such that there is precious meaning in her life now, and meaning that is meant to be lived. --What about everyone else?
Lastly, as losely translated/paraphrased in the Messsage, although only indirectly applicable to this post, this: "The Messiah has made things up between us so that we're now together on this, both non-Jewish outsiders and Jewish insiders. He tore down the wall we used to keep each other at a distance....Instead of continuing with two groups of people separated by centuries of animosity and suspicion, he created a new kind of human being, a fresh start for everybody....Christ came and preached peace to you outsiders and peace to us insiders. He treated us as equals, and so made us equals. Through him we both share the same Spirit and have equal acces to the Father." (Ephesians 2: 14,16)
So why no unity in life, but only division regarding after life? What about life?
~To those who respond, thanks in advance!
Take gentle care.
June, did you get your question answered to your satisfaction?
Don't have the energy to read the whole thread so I just wanted to add my little two cents in case it matters to you
Life is precious, and should be enjoyed and celebrated.
But life on this earth is very finite and when it's over it's over.
Eternal life however is INFINITE, and something more spectacular and sublime than anything you can compare it to on earth. I really hope to see you there!
It isn't what is in our heart, it is what is in the unbeliever's heart...that is the point. We are not worried about our walk in life, or our salvation, it is about the one whom God regenerates from our preaching and teaching...a word regenerate that is useless in UR...because regeneration has no foundation in the faith of UR...if one was regenerated in Christ, this regeneration is the effect and cause of salvation and the primary cause for eternal life, something that the unbeliever doesn't need, becuase he is already saved, according to UR, so therefore, there is no need for regeneration, since he has eternal life.
ALL will be refined...
whether you have faith in that or not.
Otherwise there would be NO glory to God if even ONE were lost.
Love your neighbor like yourself...
Who is your neighbor?
All of Creation.
Love wins, sciotamicks.
and I for one, believe it.
Love WINS.
It is the only thing that FITS.
It is the only thing that has CAUSED that "regeneration" in me that you speak of. It is the only thing that has given so much POWER behind the words "love your neighbor as yourself.."
Since you believe someone might be burned consciously forever, don't you feel any responsbility to warn them? Not doing so would, IMO, come from either an uncertainty of the ET doctrine, a hardened heart, or that you are being guided by the Holy Spirit not to do so because it's false doctrine.
I feel a RESPONSIBILITY to follow God's commandments. God has defined those commandments, not YOU. You seem to get a lot of your ideas about Christianity from the culture of postwar American Evangelical Protestantism. Your understanding of the richness and complexity of Christian Tradition, which goes back 2000 years, appears to be quite shallow. Some Americans tend to be very ethno-centric in their understanding of religion and very "in your face" because they see religion as a form of self-expression. It's a cultural thing that has to do with American individualism.
To be honest with you, where I live, most people have heard of the concept of Hell and rejected it. Some know the Bible quite well and scoff at it. It is not my responsibility--in fact it is a waste of time--to repeat to someone for the thousandth time what they have heard 999 times already. Moreover, as I stated already, Catholics Evangelize the Gospel (which clearly includes ET) through the corporal and spiritual works of mercy. We don't tend to get confronational with people in social situations like many Evangelical American Protestants like to do (see above paragraph). Our faith has a very long and majestic history. We don't tend to "push" it on people like it's a form of pop psychology or a political viewpoint.
If you think I'm a "bad Christian" because I don't go around saying "Aren't you worried about going to hell?" to ever person I meet--well, What can I say? My Church has been around for 17 centuries+ longer than the United States of America. I don't look to the norms of American culture for guidance about how to live my life as a Christian. I look to the teachings of my Church.
Blessings
Last edited by DreamingSpires; 06-29-2010 at 03:47 PM..
Reason: clarity
1. Why do you care if God's "character is assassinated" since everyone is going to know to Him soon all together in Heaven anyway? Time on this earth is just a blink of an eye in light of Eternity. That argument is disingenuous in light of your beliefs about eternity.
You're question above illustrates the problem the OP has with this entire debate. Just because URs know that everything/everyone will be okay in the end it doesn't stop agape love from reaching out to all in this distress. In fact - knowing God's "big picture" plan encourages it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires
2. Catholics are taught to live every moment of every day with our eyes fixed on eternity--knowing that every thing we do and every thought we have will be judged by the Most Holy God and thus determine our eventual destination--and it will be Heaven (perhaps Purgatory first) or Hell.
I believe virtue is it's own reward and that it is Christ in me that does good anyway. The scenario above (although useful) is definitely not God's highest/best. God's highest/best is for Christ to be formed in us and live through us - to the point where we don't even acknowledge a breech or separation from God at all. The 'old man' (selfish/ignorant/unenlightened) dies and we become a new person.
So even though an acknowledgment that one is living for something higher than themselves is a step up from living a "do whatever feels good" animalistic lifestyle - it's still a far cry from actual oneness with the Father.
The kingdom of God is here now, to break oppression here on earth, that is - to fight for the well being of the widow and the orphan, to lift up the crushed, to abolish slavery and speak out against evil and corruption in all of it's forms.
So - as I see it, the present is ALL IMPORTANT. In fact - the present is all their is!!! The more eternity minded we are the more present minded we should be because (especially as highlighted by the concept of eternity) the present is all there is IN eternity (as opposed to concept endless time which is NOT what eternity is but just a way to put off our responsibilities until later).
It isn't what is in our heart, it is what is in the unbeliever's heart...that is the point. We are not worried about our walk in life, or our salvation, it is about the one whom God regenerates from our preaching and teaching...a word regenerate that is useless in UR...because regeneration has no foundation in the faith of UR...if one was regenerated in Christ, this regeneration is the effect and cause of salvation and the primary cause for eternal life, something that the unbeliever doesn't need, becuase he is already saved, according to UR, so therefore, there is no need for regeneration, since he has eternal life.
I teach what I do because it is what gave me spiritual freedom in this life and I hope others obtain the same, I do not assume who has this or who doesn't. If you have spiritual freedom, more power to you and I am actually glad for that.
The message gets to those who it gets to, I have no control over that other than to share it wherever I can.
I am told to share the good news and to do good to aLL expecially the family of faith, I gaurantee I am not perfect at it, but I know the goal and run the race and there is no argument against that.
Your opinion that the word regenerate is useless in UR is noted but false in my life.
It is false because my life is testamony against what you say. I was only awakened spiritually through the message of UR and the teaching of the truth of Gods character, otherwise, consider me an atheist.
You're question above illustrates the problem the OP has with this entire debate. Just because URs know that everything/everyone will be okay in the end it doesn't stop agape love from reaching out to all in this distress. In fact - knowing God's "big picture" plan encourages it.
I believe virtue is it's own reward and that it is Christ in me that does good anyway. The scenario above (although useful) is definitely not God's highest/best. God's highest/best is for Christ to be formed in us and live through us - to the point where we don't even acknowledge a breech or separation from God at all. The 'old man' (selfish/ignorant/unenlightened) dies and we become a new person.
So even though an acknowledgment that one is living for something higher than themselves is a step up from living a "do whatever feels good" animalistic lifestyle - it's still a far cry from actual oneness with the Father.
The kingdom of God is here now, to break oppression here on earth, that is - to fight for the well being of the widow and the orphan, to lift up the crushed, to abolish slavery and speak out against evil and corruption in all of it's forms.
So - as I see it, the present is ALL IMPORTANT. In fact - the present is all their is!!! The more eternity minded we are the more present minded we should be because (especially as highlighted by the concept of eternity) the present is all there is IN eternity (as opposed to concept endless time which is NOT what eternity is but just a way to put off our responsibilities until later).
The more eternity minded we are the more present minded we should be
I can agree 100% with this statement, and with a vengeance.
The rest just sounds like gobbledygock to me from Oprah Winfrey.
I still don't understand why you folks spend so much time battling ET since everyone in your view goes to Heaven. I just can't get my head around it.
I can sense your motives and heart are good--and I sense the same about other Universal Soldiers here, such as BHFT. But these ideas that have seduced you are extremely dangerous and will lead to destruction. They lead to Auschwitz and Dachau, North Korea and the Gulag.
This forum is wrecking my head. I have to go now.
Blessings
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