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Jesus died to save us from our sins and spiritual death.
Only if you accept him as your saviour.
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The bible does not say we are saved from eternal torment.
Sure it does.
This is where those go who were not saved, and that is what you are saved from.
Relevation 21 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
So that is the extent of Christ's atonement for sinners: He provided a satisfaction for God's wrath that we could provide ourselves in the next life anyway? If that were true, then Christ is not our only hope of salvation; our own sufferings, too, will provide us a way out.
This makes no sense to me....we cannot provide anything for ourselves, God must do IT ALL. I don't understand what it is you're saying here.
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This is one of the problems with UR, at least the way that you have explained it: It puts Christ on the same level as sinners in terms of the ability to atone for sin. But the very thing that makes Christ's redemptive work so necessary and crucial for us is the fact that he was sinless while we are sinful. Only a sinless lamb could be sacrificed acceptably to God. We, being sinful, cannot suffer for our sins in such a way that would satisfy the wrath of God. That inability is actually what makes it eternal. Only the sinless Lamb of God could suffer in such a way as to make a full payment for sin that satisfies the wrath of God completely.
No it does not put Christ on the same level as sinners, not in the least bit. You're still not making any sense. Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to salvation, end of story. What happens in the afterlife is reconcilation, not salvation.
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Ilene, you are effectively believing that man can propitiate God apart from Christ. Do you realize that?
No I am believing that God is in control and He will do as He so desires, and that is for ALL to be reconciled. The scriptures are quite clear on this. I realize that you do not understand the UR beliefs, that's what I realize.
Relevation 21 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Excellent post, and right on the money. "Unbelieving" refers to those who are not saved. The import of the text is clear: They go to the lake of fire because of their unbelief and other sins.
June understands what you are saying, but it's somewhat difficult to reconcile this whole notion that God somehow WANTS to 'have a relationship' with his own creation, but on "certain terms." --It seems to June that you either believe in a loving God, or an arbitrarily loving God. -The latter of which June can't help but wonder isn't man made/human-imposed and interpretted....In other words, if one has faith in God, wouldn't one already by definition be pleasing God?
(Does that make sense?)
Yes it would make sense in general terms. However "God", "faith" and "what is pleasing to God" do come under the heading arbitrary.
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Originally Posted by june 7th
"God somehow WANTS to 'have a relationship' with his own creation, but on "certain terms."
Would you consider this 'have a relationship' with his own creation, but on "certain terms." ...
And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."Genesis 2:16-18
Was God being unfair?.....then why would the creation think God would not have "certain terms" to live?
What really happens June is the opposite.
"The creation somehow WANTS to 'have a relationship with God, but on "certian terms". The truth is that God's Word specifically states what it takes to please him, what it takes to have "peace with God".
Hebrews 11:6
And withoutfaithit is impossible to please God...
It by faith only that sins are forgiven: Mark 2:5
When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."
Luke 7:50
Jesus said to the woman, "Yourfaith has saved you; go in peace."
It is in this life that Jesus extends forgiveness which God offered because of his love to his creation. After death, Jesus no longer extends forgiveness to mankind but bases his judgement on "Yourfaith has saved you" That is why scripture speaks of immediatly upon death your judged and are either in heaven or hell. And on the Last Day, we read that Jesus seperates people based on "Yourfaith has saved you"
That's why so many are upset. For nothing other than Faith in Life Now will be the determining factor for being saved. That was Jesus promise, which isn't the message of UR
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Originally Posted by june 7th
"But while June may be a "sweet" lady, she ain't a "sweet old lady" quite yet! She's still "just June" adorable!
http://http.cdnlayer.com/cf/images/smilies/onion/happyblush.gif (broken link)She's still "just June" adorable
Last edited by twin.spin; 06-25-2010 at 12:04 PM..
This makes no sense to me....we cannot provide anything for ourselves, God must do IT ALL. I don't understand what it is you're saying here.
No it does not put Christ on the same level as sinners, not in the least bit. You're still not making any sense. Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to salvation, end of story. What happens in the afterlife is reconcilation, not salvation.
Ilene, what do you think salvation is? It's reconciliation, the removal of the thing that stands in between man and God: God's wrath and our sin. That happens through the sacrifice of an innocent, sinless victim.
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No I am believing that God is in control and He will do as He so desires, and that is for ALL to be reconciled.
God does not do all that he desires. If he did, there would be no sin in the world--ever. This line of argumentation simply doesn't work.
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The scriptures are quite clear on this. I realize that you do not understand the UR beliefs, that's what I realize.
I was just going by what you said. You said, "Those who do not accept Christ now will go into the afterlife to some kind of punishment. It is not eternal as you like to teach, it is only for a time and it most likely will be very unpleasant." You said that they are punished. Christ, too, was punished for sinners. So, you believe we can be saved (reconciled to God) in one of two ways: Either through the punishment of another on our behalf (i.e., Christ) or by suffering that punishment ourselves. Unless you believe that the "punishment" that people will endure in the next life accomplishes something different than the punishment that Christ endured.
Ilene, what do you think salvation is? It's reconciliation, the removal of the thing that stands in between man and God: God's wrath and our sin. That happens through the sacrifice of an innocent, sinless victim.
Salvation is through Jesus Christ in this life, right now. I guess you could apply the word "salvation" to what happens after this life, but it is more in line with reconciliation to God, and not salvation. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross is for this life, true? After judgment, there will be a price to be paid for those who did not accept Jesus as their Savior in this life, I'm just telling you that it's NOT eternal.
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God does not do all that he desires. If he did, there would be no sin in the world--ever. This line of argumentation simply doesn't work.
You're kidding right??? God most certainly DOES and will do all that He desires....He is God!! God created sin, Jremy.......He created EVERYTHING and it is all for His purpose and pleasure. Without sin and evil there would have been no need for Jesus' sacrifice!! I'm still sitting here with my mouth gaping open at your comment.
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I was just going by what you said. You said, "Those who do not accept Christ now will go into the afterlife to some kind of punishment. It is not eternal as you like to teach, it is only for a time and it most likely will be very unpleasant." You said that they are punished. Christ, too, was punished for sinners. So, you believe we can be saved (reconciled to God) in one of two ways: Either through the punishment of another on our behalf (i.e., Christ) or by suffering that punishment ourselves. Unless you believe that the "punishment" that people will endure in the next life accomplishes something different than the punishment that Christ endured.
That's right, they will. God's wrath will remain and no one will be able to be in His presence until they have been "refined" by God's spiritual fire. Yes, Christ was punished for sinners but we are talking about the afterlife and what happens to individuals after judgment. For whatever reason, in this life it was necessary for a sacrifice to be made (Christ) for sinners in order to be "saved" or reconciled to God.....in the next life it will be the individual who does the suffering in order to be reconciled if they did not know Christ in this life.
Salvation is through Jesus Christ in this life, right now. I guess you could apply the word "salvation" to what happens after this life, but it is more in line with reconciliation to God, and not salvation. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross is for this life, true? After judgment, there will be a price to be paid for those who did not accept Jesus as their Savior in this life, I'm just telling you that it's NOT eternal.
You're kidding right??? God most certainly DOES and will do all that He desires....He is God!! God created sin, Jremy.......He created EVERYTHING and it is all for His purpose and pleasure. Without sin and evil there would have been no need for Jesus' sacrifice!! I'm still sitting here with my mouth gaping open at your comment.
That's right, they will. God's wrath will remain and no one will be able to be in His presence until they have been "refined" by God's spiritual fire. Yes, Christ was punished for sinners but we are talking about the afterlife and what happens to individuals after judgment. For whatever reason, in this life it was necessary for a sacrifice to be made (Christ) for sinners in order to be "saved" or reconciled to God.....in the next life it will be the individual who does the suffering in order to be reconciled if they did not know Christ in this life.
Just a further thought:
UR says all will be saved through Christ. All will be refined and judged. Some now, the rest in the after life.
Its not about "saving yourself" or "paying for your own sin" in the afterlife. Everyone reaps what they sow. Now and/or later. We all reap what we sow for the sins we commit.
All will be brought to God the same way: through Jesus and by being refined by Him.
UR says all will be saved through Christ. All will be refined and judged. Some now, the rest in the after life.
Christianity actually has the same belief, but in their "context" final refining takes place after death but only for those who accepted Christ in this life.
UR simply understands that the defining line of accepting Christ before death in this life is not a scriptural reality.
One of the reasons I take the time to argue against ET doctrine is that it does (by nature) put an emphasis on the afterlife.
This is completely a false premise. First of all UR, presents focus on the afterlife, or better yet, the in between life and heavenly life, thus confirming such status as purgatory, or other abodes of the dead for that matter. This really gets me, and others alike, is that UR cloaks itself in this secret truth, only by pulling it converts to it through crafty usage of the scriptures and emotionally charged philosophical errors.
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The ET paradigm screws everything up so badly.
No it doesn't. ET is true to the scriptures...UR makes it up as it goes along and twists warnings and condemnations for lack of faith and belief into some fairy tale "corrective" period post mortem.
Good grief.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 06-25-2010 at 12:22 PM..
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God most certainly DOES and will do all that He desires....He is God!! God created sin, Jremy.......He created EVERYTHING and it is all for His purpose and pleasure. Without sin and evil there would have been no need for Jesus' sacrifice!! I'm still sitting here with my mouth gaping open at your comment.
