U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-24-2010, 04:03 PM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,611,821 times
Reputation: 181

Advertisements

Where does Christ want people to "tarry" (same word as abide in this passage)?
  • John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Abide in Christ and "I will come to you"
  • John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-24-2010, 04:58 PM
 
11,293 posts, read 11,309,320 times
Reputation: 3483
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
Where does Christ want people to "tarry" (same word as abide in this passage)?
  • John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Abide in Christ and "I will come to you"
  • John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Very interesting, kingdom. Of course it opens up a whole new can of worms, but that's an interesting approach to sorting out this suddenly thorny issue.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-24-2010, 06:57 PM
 
51 posts, read 110,879 times
Reputation: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Jesus is basically saying to Peter, "I am going to return while John is still alive but after you are dead."

True to His word, Peter died in Rome circa 64-67 AD, roughly five years before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, the year Preterists believe Jesus fulfilled His Word and returned. John was still alive.
Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." (John 21:22)




The operative word is "if". Jesus never stated that John WOULD remain alive till He returned. God bless you
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-24-2010, 08:14 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,396,579 times
Reputation: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
Where does Christ want people to "tarry" (same word as abide in this passage)?
  • John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Abide in Christ and "I will come to you"
  • John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Interesting....here is something I noticed regarding the two passages where the Greek word ἔρχομαι (translated as come) is compared:

Joh 14:18 `I will not leave you bereaved, I come unto you;

The word "come" is in the:
Tense-Present
Voice-Middle or Passive Deponent
Mood -Indicative

Joh 21:23 yet Jesus did not say to him, that he doth not die, but, `If him I will to remain till I come, what--to thee?'

The word "come" is also used here in the:
Tense-Present
Voice-Middle or Passive Deponent
Mood -Indicative

It appears to be a continual present coming, and not necessarily a single future event. Does this make any sense? Does anyone know why the present tense is being used for what many might interpret as a future (one time?) event?

For comparison, here is where ἔρχομαι is used in the future tense:

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, `If any one may love me, my word he will keep, and my Father will love him, and unto him we will come, and abode with him we will make;
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-24-2010, 10:08 PM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,611,821 times
Reputation: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Interesting....here is something I noticed regarding the two passages where the Greek word ἔρχομαι (translated as come) is compared:

Joh 14:18 `I will not leave you bereaved, I come unto you;

The word "come" is in the:
Tense-Present
Voice-Middle or Passive Deponent
Mood -Indicative

Joh 21:23 yet Jesus did not say to him, that he doth not die, but, `If him I will to remain till I come, what--to thee?'

The word "come" is also used here in the:
Tense-Present
Voice-Middle or Passive Deponent
Mood -Indicative

It appears to be a continual present coming, and not necessarily a single future event. Does this make any sense?
Yes, that makes complete sense to me and that is how I understand it.

Quote:
Does anyone know why the present tense is being used for what many might interpret as a future (one time?) event?
Not sure why. Maybe it is placing the reader into that future time and viewing the events in the present, like if I say "once we put in our star pitcher on the mound, we ARE home free". At any rate, it seems to be rather common for that tense/mood/voice to be referring to impending future events or events that are taking place now and in the future. Here are some other examples. These all seem to be ongoing and repeatable events.
  • John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
  • John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest
  • John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
  • John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
  • John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me

This one seems to refer to a singular event though.
  • John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-24-2010, 10:21 PM
 
697 posts, read 915,677 times
Reputation: 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
II think we've got to get away from allowing our own biases about the date of Jesus' return influence our interpretations of scriptures and just look at what the words themselves mean. Otherwise we'll forever be bickering and arguing amongst ourselves and looking even more foolish in the eyes of the world than we already do.
Even if you could escape your own biases, you can't escape biases influencing translators' interpretations - unless you can read the Bible in its original languages.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-24-2010, 10:39 PM
 
11,293 posts, read 11,309,320 times
Reputation: 3483
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertJoe View Post
Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." (John 21:22)




The operative word is "if". Jesus never stated that John WOULD remain alive till He returned. God bless you
Well, I addressed this point elsewhere in the thread. If I say, "If I want to blow my savings in Las Vegas what it to you?", is there any doubt in your mind that I intend to blow my savings in Las Vegas?

Again, I ask (and no one seems to want to answer) the question: Jesus could just as easily have made His point to Peter without bringing up His return. Why does He mention it unless He wants everyone to know that He will return in John's lifetime?

Last edited by thrillobyte; 06-24-2010 at 10:48 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-24-2010, 10:41 PM
 
11,293 posts, read 11,309,320 times
Reputation: 3483
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Interesting....here is something I noticed regarding the two passages where the Greek word ἔρχομαι (translated as come) is compared:

Joh 14:18 `I will not leave you bereaved, I come unto you;

The word "come" is in the:
Tense-Present
Voice-Middle or Passive Deponent
Mood -Indicative

Joh 21:23 yet Jesus did not say to him, that he doth not die, but, `If him I will to remain till I come, what--to thee?'

The word "come" is also used here in the:
Tense-Present
Voice-Middle or Passive Deponent
Mood -Indicative

It appears to be a continual present coming, and not necessarily a single future event. Does this make any sense? Does anyone know why the present tense is being used for what many might interpret as a future (one time?) event?

For comparison, here is where ἔρχομαι is used in the future tense:

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, `If any one may love me, my word he will keep, and my Father will love him, and unto him we will come, and abode with him we will make;
It's bad to get into an analysis of tenses in this, Alabama. These texts are so badly translated that the tense has absolutely no meaning in them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-24-2010, 10:45 PM
 
11,293 posts, read 11,309,320 times
Reputation: 3483
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmalltownKSgirl View Post
Even if you could escape your own biases, you can't escape biases influencing translators' interpretations - unless you can read the Bible in its original languages.
Very very true. That's why I caution anyone not to read to much into them or over-analyze them because they have been so mangled over the centuries that we don't know what in the heck we're reading these days!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-24-2010, 10:59 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,396,579 times
Reputation: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Well, I addressed this point elsewhere in the thread. If I say, "If I want to blow my savings in Las Vegas what it to you?", is there any doubt in your mind that I intend to blow my savings in Las Vegas?
Why use the qualifier "if", if there is no question as to what you'll do? Would it not be better to say "I'm going to blow my savings in Las Vegas, what is that to you?" That would remove all doubt, right?

Quote:
Again, I ask (and no one seems to want to answer) the question: Jesus could just as easily have made His point to Peter without bringing up His return. Why does He mention it unless He wants everyone to know that He will return in John's lifetime?
I think you have to start with the assumption that this is what Jesus wanted to make known. But why assume this to begin with?

The question I have is: If it was Jesus' intent to make known that John would see His return (will assume the 70AD event here), why did John need to clarify what Jesus said? What is it that John is trying to tell us, and why would John make a point to correct the other 11 disciples, if Jesus' words were clearly understood as you're suggesting, and as the other disciples assumed? Why the need for clarification by John, if no clarification was needed?

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 06-24-2010 at 11:18 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top