U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-24-2010, 11:04 PM
 
697 posts, read 918,009 times
Reputation: 346

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Very very true. That's why I caution anyone not to read to much into them or over-analyze them because they have been so mangled over the centuries that we don't know what in the heck we're reading these days!
Do you read the Bible in its original languages then?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-24-2010, 11:08 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,402,843 times
Reputation: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
It's bad to get into an analysis of tenses in this, Alabama. These texts are so badly translated that the tense has absolutely no meaning in them.
It does bring out some shades of meaning that may be overlooked though. Still a good tool to have on the belt, right?...Not saying it makes anything more clear though...LOL
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-24-2010, 11:21 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,710,730 times
Reputation: 1700
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Why use the qualifier "if", if there is no question as to what you'll do? Would it not be better to say "I'm going to blow my savings in Las Vegas, what is that to you?" That would remove all doubt, right?

I think you have to start with the assumption that this is what Jesus wanted to make known. But why assume this to begin with?
What if you could win in Vegas? What if only the father knew the exact time? Even though I don't think it is definitive I lean toward Jesus knowing that some standing there would not die until seeing his return.
He knew Peter would deny him three times... so it stands to reason, IMO, that he knew Peter would die. See John 21:18-19. So the verse itself might be ambiguous but taken with other accounts of what Jesus said about Peter and John it is probable that John would live to see his return.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-24-2010, 11:28 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,402,843 times
Reputation: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
What if you could win in Vegas?
Well, I guess I never thought of that...always lost in Vegas...
Quote:
What if only the father knew the exact time? Even though I don't think it is definitive I lean toward Jesus knowing that some standing there would not die until seeing his return.
He knew Peter would deny him three times... so it stands to reason, IMO, that he knew Peter would die. See John 21:18-19. So the verse itself might be ambiguous but taken with other accounts of what Jesus said about Peter and John it is probable that John would live to see his return.
I would be more inclined to agree if John did not try to clarify Jesus' words. So why did John need to clarify what Jesus said then?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-25-2010, 01:13 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,710,730 times
Reputation: 1700
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Well, I guess I never thought of that...always lost in Vegas...
I would be more inclined to agree if John did not try to clarify Jesus' words. So why did John need to clarify what Jesus said then?
Ummm...

John 21:23 - Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die;

Some were saying that John would never die... they took it wrong and John clarifies that Jesus did not mean that John would never die but that Peter would die..

John was still called John the Divine even though he clarified it seems.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-25-2010, 02:34 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,455,511 times
Reputation: 420
Most misinterpret the 11th Horn, and posit Christ coming on the clouds reference to Daniel 7 referring it to the destruction of a heathen empire, when in fact, the kingdom, the empire that is judged, the son of perdition, the corporate man of sin, is simply the apostate system of Judaism, who killed Christ, broke from the circumcision of the heart with God, persecuted the Judeo and Gentile Christians, and brought malice on them via means of the Roman authority. It is easy for the futurist to see the error in Preterism if one were to assign this to the identity of a non-Jewish source, however, the scriptures plainly point the finger at the Jewish system that had gone wrong, and were going to be judged within the time frame of Christ's resurrection and parousia, when it would be revealed to the Christian congregation once the prophecies began unfolding as Israel fell into tribulation, that it was Apostate Israel, who is the Anitchirst.

This kingdom was a fragile kingdom, like the one of Daniel 2, that it was mixed with Iron (Rome) and Clay (Israel), and the relationship between the two was unbalanced, to say the least. This kingdom, was ruled by death, and was bound to the laws of sin, and once this system was judged, death no longer held the saints and servants of God captive, and released not only OC Israel from these chains, but united Gentile and Jew, as were supposed to be before Israel went awry, whom was supposed to be a light to the Gentiles subsequently, thus redeeming them, and to those who put their faith in Christ, to become a part of His new creation and live with Him in their hearts eternally.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-25-2010, 07:33 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,402,843 times
Reputation: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Ummm...

John 21:23 - Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die;

Some were saying that John would never die... they took it wrong and John clarifies that Jesus did not mean that John would never die but that Peter would die..

John was still called John the Divine even though he clarified it seems.
Yes, I did read that in your previous response too. But you've introduced the word "never" die (instead of "not" die) into the discussion. I'm still somewhat at a loss as to how others are thinking this through. I'll post the most literal version I have to go by. Here is how it reads in my Greek-English interlinear (with Strong's numbers for reference):

Joh 21:22 λεγει G3004(G5719)[SAYS] αυτω G846 ο G3588[TO HIM] ιησους G2424[JESUS,] εαν G1437[IF] αυτον G846[HIM] θελω G2309(G5725)[I DESIRE] μενειν G3306(G5721)[TO ABIDE] εως G2193[TILL] ερχομαι G2064(G5736)[I COME,] τι G5101[WHAT "IS IT"] προς G4314[TO] σε G4571[THEE?] συ G4771[THOU] ακολουθει G190(G5720)[FOLLOW] μοι G3427[ME.]

Joh 21:23 εξηλθεν G1831(G5627)[WENT OUT] ουν G3767 ο G3588[THEREFORE] λογος G3056 ουτος G3778[THIS WORD] εις G1519[AMONG] τους G3588[THE] αδελφους G80[BRETHREN,] οτι G3754 ο G3588[THAT] μαθητης G3101 εκεινος G1565 ουκ G3756[THAT DISCIPLE] αποθνησκει G599(G5719)[DOES NOT DIE.] και G2532[HOWEVER] ουκ G3756[NOT] ειπεν G2036(G5627)[SAID] αυτω G846 ο G3588[TO HIM] ιησους G2424[JESUS,] οτι G3754 ουκ G3756[THAT] αποθνησκει G599(G5719)[HE DOES NOT DIE;] αλλ G235[BUT,] εαν G1437[IF] αυτον G846[HIM] θελω G2309(G5725)[I DESIRE] μενειν G3306(G5721)[TO ABIDE] εως G2193[TILL] ερχομαι G2064(G5736)[I COME,] τι G5101[WHAT "IS IT"] προς G4314[TO] σε G4571[THEE?]

And in somewhat better English (but still literal):

Joh 21:22 Says to him the Jesus: If him I wish to abide till I come, what to thee? thou follow me.
Joh 21:23 Went out therefore the word this among the brethren, that the disciple that not dies. And not said to him the Jesus, that not he dies; but: If him I wish to abide till I come, what to thee?

So where does the idea of "never die" come about? And does "abide" (the word used by Jesus) mean not to die, as used by the disciples? I'm starting to wonder if Johns clarification was also ambiguous...or is it simply our doctrinal interpretations that are getting in the way to make it seem so?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-25-2010, 08:26 AM
 
51 posts, read 111,132 times
Reputation: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Very very true. That's why I caution anyone not to read to much into them or over-analyze them because they have been so mangled over the centuries that we don't know what in the heck we're reading these days!
So you believe that God is so weak & powerless that He has been unable to preserve His word against the feeble attacks of those He created? Who is this god you worship? Not very big,is he?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-25-2010, 04:37 PM
 
11,358 posts, read 11,356,163 times
Reputation: 3530
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
It does bring out some shades of meaning that may be overlooked though. Still a good tool to have on the belt, right?...Not saying it makes anything more clear though...LOL
The ambiguities in the scriptures re hell, UR, ET, rapture, antichrist, beast, etc make discussing it with anyone a Herculean task. Witness all the fights, rancor, name-calling that goes on in here among "Christians" over these topics. But I hear you. What else have we got if we don't read Aramaic or ancient Greek?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-25-2010, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,710,730 times
Reputation: 1700
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Yes, I did read that in your previous response too. But you've introduced the word "never" die (instead of "not" die) into the discussion. I'm still somewhat at a loss as to how others are thinking this through. I'll post the most literal version I have to go by. Here is how it reads in my Greek-English interlinear (with Strong's numbers for reference):

Joh 21:22 λεγει G3004(G5719)[SAYS] αυτω G846 ο G3588[TO HIM] ιησους G2424[JESUS,] εαν G1437[IF] αυτον G846[HIM] θελω G2309(G5725)[I DESIRE] μενειν G3306(G5721)[TO ABIDE] εως G2193[TILL] ερχομαι G2064(G5736)[I COME,] τι G5101[WHAT "IS IT"] προς G4314[TO] σε G4571[THEE?] συ G4771[THOU] ακολουθει G190(G5720)[FOLLOW] μοι G3427[ME.]

Joh 21:23 εξηλθεν G1831(G5627)[WENT OUT] ουν G3767 ο G3588[THEREFORE] λογος G3056 ουτος G3778[THIS WORD] εις G1519[AMONG] τους G3588[THE] αδελφους G80[BRETHREN,] οτι G3754 ο G3588[THAT] μαθητης G3101 εκεινος G1565 ουκ G3756[THAT DISCIPLE] αποθνησκει G599(G5719)[DOES NOT DIE.] και G2532[HOWEVER] ουκ G3756[NOT] ειπεν G2036(G5627)[SAID] αυτω G846 ο G3588[TO HIM] ιησους G2424[JESUS,] οτι G3754 ουκ G3756[THAT] αποθνησκει G599(G5719)[HE DOES NOT DIE;] αλλ G235[BUT,] εαν G1437[IF] αυτον G846[HIM] θελω G2309(G5725)[I DESIRE] μενειν G3306(G5721)[TO ABIDE] εως G2193[TILL] ερχομαι G2064(G5736)[I COME,] τι G5101[WHAT "IS IT"] προς G4314[TO] σε G4571[THEE?]

And in somewhat better English (but still literal):

Joh 21:22 Says to him the Jesus: If him I wish to abide till I come, what to thee? thou follow me.
Joh 21:23 Went out therefore the word this among the brethren, that the disciple that not dies. And not said to him the Jesus, that not he dies; but: If him I wish to abide till I come, what to thee?

So where does the idea of "never die" come about? And does "abide" (the word used by Jesus) mean not to die, as used by the disciples? I'm starting to wonder if Johns clarification was also ambiguous...or is it simply our doctrinal interpretations that are getting in the way to make it seem so?
Yes.. it was the misunderstanding of the others claiming that John would not die. Later he was thought to be divine... I guess because Jesus said he would not die but really (and here John clarifies) Jesus said that he would not die before seeing Jesus.

So a misunderstanding is what started the clarification. The misunderstanding was the Jesus said John would not die, as in never (divine) or living without death. But that was not the case as John tells us. Jesus said that it was none of Peter's business what job John has to do.

I think we agree. I simply think that with all the other verses put together regarding the "end of ages;" and Revelation compared to the secular history of that time...this backs up preterism in that his return was to happen within the generation of the disciples.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top