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Where does Christ want people to "tarry" (same word as abide in this passage)?
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Abide in Christ and "I will come to you"
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Where does Christ want people to "tarry" (same word as abide in this passage)?
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Abide in Christ and "I will come to you"
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Very interesting, kingdom. Of course it opens up a whole new can of worms, but that's an interesting approach to sorting out this suddenly thorny issue.
Jesus is basically saying to Peter, "I am going to return while John is still alive but after you are dead."
True to His word, Peter died in Rome circa 64-67 AD, roughly five years before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, the year Preterists believe Jesus fulfilled His Word and returned. John was still alive.
Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." (John 21:22)
The operative word is "if". Jesus never stated that John WOULD remain alive till He returned. God bless you
Where does Christ want people to "tarry" (same word as abide in this passage)?
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Abide in Christ and "I will come to you"
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Interesting....here is something I noticed regarding the two passages where the Greek word ἔρχομαι (translated as come) is compared:
Joh 14:18 `I will not leave you bereaved, I come unto you;
The word "come" is in the:
Tense-Present
Voice-Middle or Passive Deponent
Mood -Indicative
Joh 21:23 yet Jesus did not say to him, that he doth not die, but, `If him I will to remain till I come, what--to thee?'
The word "come" is also used here in the:
Tense-Present
Voice-Middle or Passive Deponent
Mood -Indicative
It appears to be a continual present coming, and not necessarily a single future event. Does this make any sense? Does anyone know why the present tense is being used for what many might interpret as a future (one time?) event?
For comparison, here is where ἔρχομαι is used in the future tense:
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, `If any one may love me, my word he will keep, and my Father will love him, and unto him we will come, and abode with him we will make;
Interesting....here is something I noticed regarding the two passages where the Greek word ἔρχομαι (translated as come) is compared:
Joh 14:18 `I will not leave you bereaved, I come unto you;
The word "come" is in the:
Tense-Present
Voice-Middle or Passive Deponent
Mood -Indicative
Joh 21:23 yet Jesus did not say to him, that he doth not die, but, `If him I will to remain till I come, what--to thee?'
The word "come" is also used here in the:
Tense-Present
Voice-Middle or Passive Deponent
Mood -Indicative
It appears to be a continual present coming, and not necessarily a single future event. Does this make any sense?
Yes, that makes complete sense to me and that is how I understand it.
Quote:
Does anyone know why the present tense is being used for what many might interpret as a future (one time?) event?
Not sure why. Maybe it is placing the reader into that future time and viewing the events in the present, like if I say "once we put in our star pitcher on the mound, we ARE home free". At any rate, it seems to be rather common for that tense/mood/voice to be referring to impending future events or events that are taking place now and in the future. Here are some other examples. These all seem to be ongoing and repeatable events.
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me
This one seems to refer to a singular event though.
John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was
II think we've got to get away from allowing our own biases about the date of Jesus' return influence our interpretations of scriptures and just look at what the words themselves mean. Otherwise we'll forever be bickering and arguing amongst ourselves and looking even more foolish in the eyes of the world than we already do.
Even if you could escape your own biases, you can't escape biases influencing translators' interpretations - unless you can read the Bible in its original languages.
Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." (John 21:22)
The operative word is "if". Jesus never stated that John WOULD remain alive till He returned. God bless you
Well, I addressed this point elsewhere in the thread. If I say, "If I want to blow my savings in Las Vegas what it to you?", is there any doubt in your mind that I intend to blow my savings in Las Vegas?
Again, I ask (and no one seems to want to answer) the question: Jesus could just as easily have made His point to Peter without bringing up His return. Why does He mention it unless He wants everyone to know that He will return in John's lifetime?
Last edited by thrillobyte; 06-24-2010 at 10:48 PM..
Interesting....here is something I noticed regarding the two passages where the Greek word ἔρχομαι (translated as come) is compared:
Joh 14:18 `I will not leave you bereaved, I come unto you;
The word "come" is in the:
Tense-Present
Voice-Middle or Passive Deponent
Mood -Indicative
Joh 21:23 yet Jesus did not say to him, that he doth not die, but, `If him I will to remain till I come, what--to thee?'
The word "come" is also used here in the:
Tense-Present
Voice-Middle or Passive Deponent
Mood -Indicative
It appears to be a continual present coming, and not necessarily a single future event. Does this make any sense? Does anyone know why the present tense is being used for what many might interpret as a future (one time?) event?
For comparison, here is where ἔρχομαι is used in the future tense:
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, `If any one may love me, my word he will keep, and my Father will love him, and unto him we will come, and abode with him we will make;
It's bad to get into an analysis of tenses in this, Alabama. These texts are so badly translated that the tense has absolutely no meaning in them.
Even if you could escape your own biases, you can't escape biases influencing translators' interpretations - unless you can read the Bible in its original languages.
Very very true. That's why I caution anyone not to read to much into them or over-analyze them because they have been so mangled over the centuries that we don't know what in the heck we're reading these days!
Well, I addressed this point elsewhere in the thread. If I say, "If I want to blow my savings in Las Vegas what it to you?", is there any doubt in your mind that I intend to blow my savings in Las Vegas?
Why use the qualifier "if", if there is no question as to what you'll do? Would it not be better to say "I'm going to blow my savings in Las Vegas, what is that to you?" That would remove all doubt, right?
Quote:
Again, I ask (and no one seems to want to answer) the question: Jesus could just as easily have made His point to Peter without bringing up His return. Why does He mention it unless He wants everyone to know that He will return in John's lifetime?
I think you have to start with the assumption that this is what Jesus wanted to make known. But why assume this to begin with?
The question I have is: If it was Jesus' intent to make known that John would see His return (will assume the 70AD event here), why did John need to clarify what Jesus said? What is it that John is trying to tell us, and why would John make a point to correct the other 11 disciples, if Jesus' words were clearly understood as you're suggesting, and as the other disciples assumed? Why the need for clarification by John, if no clarification was needed?
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 06-24-2010 at 11:18 PM..
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