U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-29-2010, 09:30 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,687,052 times
Reputation: 1699

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Look!!! To cut through all your crap, 1) I gave several verses that prove that a 360 day year is used. 2) Christ was crucified after the first 483 years of the prophecy were fulfilled. That much of the prophecy has been fulfilled. 3) All that remains to be fulfilled is the last seven years. Because, among other things, you are a preterist, you will not accept that.

Readers may refer back to posts # 18, 22, 27, and 45 to see what I have written about this subject.
Look... I agree that Revelation states 1260 but just consider this:

7 years at 360 days per year is 2520 days... half of which is 1260.

7 years at 365.25 days per year is 2556.75 days... half of which is 1278.375 days.

That is an 18 day difference! Daniel states HALF of 7 years which is approximately 1260 days whether 360 day years or 365.25 days! You prove nothing with such a short span of time! After 7 years you would have to start adding in the 13th month so this COULD BE 1260 days as half of 7 years even WITH a 365.25 day year! BUT if you have 49 years that is not the case......

Bottom line: There is no need to change the days of the year to 360 EXCEPT to create your paradigm. If you take REAL years at 365.25 days per year from the first or second decree then the result is the same!

The fact is that you have no basis for the gap! The passage gives no indication that there is a gap.. taken with the SOON and NEAR and NOT SEALED portions of Revelation and you have the fulfillment in 70AD!

You obviously refuse to see the truth...

whatever you want, at least admit it to yourself!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-29-2010, 09:33 PM
 
21,992 posts, read 16,760,306 times
Reputation: 8767
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yes it is... because there is no uncertainty!!!!
The rapture, which you don't even believe in, is eminent. That means that there are no prophecies to be fulfilled before it can occur. No one knows when the church-age will be terminated. It is uncertain. But it is close.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-29-2010, 09:48 PM
 
21,992 posts, read 16,760,306 times
Reputation: 8767
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Look... I agree that Revelation states 1260 but just consider this:

7 years at 360 days per year is 2520 days... half of which is 1260.

7 years at 365.25 days per year is 2556.75 days... half of which is 1278.375 days.

That is an 18 day difference! Daniel states HALF of 7 years which is approximately 1260 days whether 360 day years or 365.25 days! You prove nothing with such a short span of time! After 7 years you would have to start adding in the 13th month so this COULD BE 1260 days as half of 7 years even WITH a 365.25 day year! BUT if you have 49 years that is not the case......

Bottom line: There is no need to change the days of the year to 360 EXCEPT to create your paradigm. If you take REAL years at 365.25 days per year from the first or second decree then the result is the same!

The fact is that you have no basis for the gap! The passage gives no indication that there is a gap.. taken with the SOON and NEAR and NOT SEALED portions of Revelation and you have the fulfillment in 70AD!

You obviously refuse to see the truth...

whatever you want, at least admit it to yourself!
I invite readers to go back to post #22 and see the gap in the prophesy of Isaiah 61 when compared with Jesus' fulfillment of it in Luke 4:18.

It is not uncommon for there to be gaps in time in the fulfillment of a prophecy. And that applies to the prophecy of Daniels 490 years.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-29-2010, 10:28 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,687,052 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I invite readers to go back to post #22 and see the gap in the prophesy of Isaiah 61 when compared with Jesus' fulfillment of it in Luke 4:18.

It is not uncommon for there to be gaps in time in the fulfillment of a prophecy. And that applies to the prophecy of Daniels 490 years.
LOL you can SAY that but that is hardly the case!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-29-2010, 11:21 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,442,809 times
Reputation: 420
Actually the Danielic Prophecy of Seventy Weekings ended with the stoning of Stephen. Shortly after that the message turned to the Gentiles in full force. While it is true that in Jerusalem and abroad, the Jews were coming to the faith, the prophecy itself says nothing of the latter half of the 70th week. However, it does stretch the prophecy outside of the permeters to the Ressurrection of Israel, which is where the Fullness of the Gentiles come in...the marriage, even until the consummation......

Remember the 70 weeks or 490 years was the time God gave His chosen nation, Israel, to end their rebellion where they would then be forgiven for their transgressions. Now note that Jesus references this prophetic time period while conversing with Peter on the topic forgiveness.

Matthew 18:21 “Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

This still leaves 3.5 years before the end of Daniel’s 70 weeks and the close of probation for Israel. The Gospel was still to go the Jews exclusively for this remaining time. So what happened at the end of the 490 years? Stephen gave one immense and very significant speech before the Sanhedrin. This was God giving the Jews their final chance to repent. How did they respond and what did they do?

cts 7:54-60 “When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

For me...the scrtiptures in Acts sealed the deal. No gaps. Desolation began, and the terror and persecutions began, the man of sin revealed to the church as Apostate Judaism, and the consummation finalized it. The temple fell. No more records...nothing. Judaism can never practiced fully again....ever.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-30-2010, 01:09 AM
 
11,277 posts, read 11,303,308 times
Reputation: 3477
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Actually the Danielic Prophecy of Seventy Weekings ended with the stoning of Stephen. Shortly after that the message turned to the Gentiles in full force. While it is true that in Jerusalem and abroad, the Jews were coming to the faith, the prophecy itself says nothing of the latter half of the 70th week. However, it does stretch the prophecy outside of the permeters to the Ressurrection of Israel, which is where the Fullness of the Gentiles come in...the marriage, even until the consummation......

Remember the 70 weeks or 490 years was the time God gave His chosen nation, Israel, to end their rebellion where they would then be forgiven for their transgressions. Now note that Jesus references this prophetic time period while conversing with Peter on the topic forgiveness.

Matthew 18:21 “Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

This still leaves 3.5 years before the end of Daniel’s 70 weeks and the close of probation for Israel. The Gospel was still to go the Jews exclusively for this remaining time. So what happened at the end of the 490 years? Stephen gave one immense and very significant speech before the Sanhedrin. This was God giving the Jews their final chance to repent. How did they respond and what did they do?

cts 7:54-60 “When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

For me...the scrtiptures in Acts sealed the deal. No gaps. Desolation began, and the terror and persecutions began, the man of sin revealed to the church as Apostate Judaism, and the consummation finalized it. The temple fell. No more records...nothing. Judaism can never practiced fully again....ever.
Well said, sciotamicks. I wish others could see the beauty of Daniel's prophecy coming so perfectly to a close at the end of the 490 CONTINUOUS years from the command to rebuild Jerusalem; the sheer idiocy of breaking off one week from the 70, separating it from the other 69 by....how many centuries?; and the sheer lunacy of ascribing the "he" in "and he shall confirm a covanent"... to Satan instead of Jesus, who the prophecy speaks exclusively of. Again, well said.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-30-2010, 01:58 AM
 
Location: Out of Florida........
4,309 posts, read 5,590,108 times
Reputation: 939
http://bestsmileys.com/signs13/10.gif (broken link)


really thrillabyte.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-30-2010, 07:15 AM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,562,058 times
Reputation: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Jews used a 360 day Lunar calendar which made the necessary corrections when needed by including a 13th month when enough days has accumulated. But that correction is not a consideration in prophecy.


This is where you go wrong.You have no proof that the prophecy must use,over hundreds of years,a prophetic year,an invention unknown before created by dispensationalists.And all your posts referring to the 1260 days of Revelation to not make it so.3 1/2 years was not enough time to need the extra 13th month.What is so hard for you to understand about that?You might as well try to prove that out calendar doesn't add a 29th day in February every 4 years by posting that the time between 3 Christmases is only 1095 days,so therefore,as you like to claim,you have PROVEN that no 29th day exists.

There is no such thing as a 360 prophetic year.It is lame BS made up by desperate dispensationalists.The prophecy was given to the Jews,not to Christians trying to force a prophecy link where there is none.It was to be understood as taking the same amount of time as any other counting of time they did.

It is the lamest of claims to try and posit that for the ancient Jews to understand the correct dating of THEIR prophecy that they would have had to resort to the mathematical chicanery of the modern day dispensationalists.They knew what their calendar said and how it worked.They used it all the time.And they understood that months would get added in on periods of over 6 years.OVER 6 years.Get it?

But if anyone is silly enough to fall for this stuff,well then they deserve to be in that camp.There is a reason the hucksters of televangelism do not try to make their money off of educated mainstream Christians .

And please spare me the "refer back to my post" stuff.Your posts,however much you might want to think so,are not authoritative.They are your speculation based on what you have been taught,along with weak evidences you choose to believe to keep your theology intact.Nothing more.

Last edited by lifertexan; 06-30-2010 at 07:24 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-30-2010, 08:16 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,918,387 times
Reputation: 1354
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
This is where you go wrong.You have no proof that the prophecy must use,over hundreds of years,a prophetic year,an invention unknown before created by dispensationalists.And all your posts referring to the 1260 days of Revelation to not make it so.3 1/2 years was not enough time to need the extra 13th month.What is so hard for you to understand about that?You might as well try to prove that out calendar doesn't add a 29th day in February every 4 years by posting that the time between 3 Christmases is only 1095 days,so therefore,as you like to claim,you have PROVEN that no 29th day exists.

There is no such thing as a 360 prophetic year.It is lame BS made up by desperate dispensationalists.The prophecy was given to the Jews,not to Christians trying to force a prophecy link where there is none.It was to be understood as taking the same amount of time as any other counting of time they did.

It is the lamest of claims to try and posit that for the ancient Jews to understand the correct dating of THEIR prophecy that they would have had to resort to the mathematical chicanery of the modern day dispensationalists.They knew what their calendar said and how it worked.They used it all the time.And they understood that months would get added in on periods of over 6 years.OVER 6 years.Get it?

But if anyone is silly enough to fall for this stuff,well then they deserve to be in that camp.There is a reason the hucksters of televangelism do not try to make their money off of educated mainstream Christians .

And please spare me the "refer back to my post" stuff.Your posts,however much you might want to think so,are not authoritative.They are your speculation based on what you have been taught,along with weak evidences you choose to believe to keep your theology intact.Nothing more.
[sarcasm made to prove a point]Ahh...my Texan friend...the Jews are "blind" because of their rejection of Christ so they have NO clue about these finer details of prophetic scripture like holy ghost filled special Christians who have been chosen to see things the average man cannot see.[/sarcasm made to prove a point]

Further up the page Mike mentioned the "gap theory." This is a fine device used by later Christians to explain away the unexplainable or simply, to avoid the clear embarrassment. Simply put, if an ENTIRE prophecy does not or did not come pass, simply claim that god authored part of it to be fulfilled back then with the other part left to be fulfilled later.

The passage that Mike mentioned in Isaiah which Jesus quotes (so says the Gospel writer) is supposed to be an example of this. Apparently it is completely impossible for Mike to consider the other possibility and that is, the writer realized that there was NO end time judgment that came about when Jesus was here so why mention it as part of the prophecy Jesus was supposedly fulfilling? Full stop the prophecy and limit it to his preaching (which he did) and leave the rest of the prophesy for some indertiminate period of time well into the future.

Here are the two passages next to each other:

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,
Because the LORD has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn..
." (Isaiah 61:1-2)

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,To set at liberty those who are oppressed; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD..." (Luke 4:18-19)

The writer goes on to tell us that Jesus closed the book of Isaiah AFTER reciting up the words "To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD" even though the book of Isaiah's words continue on. The gap theorists use this example to point out that god places gaps within prophecies or, "dual-prophesies" they call them. They say that Jesus' FIRST coming was simply to preach deliverance (the first part of the prophesy) but the next half which speaks of judgment (which Jesus does not touch, is for a future time). This sounds plausible (I think), however, when one continues to read the original sripture in Isaiah, the writer is CLEARLY writing to the exiled community in Babylon circa late 500s/early 600s BC and not people living in the 21st century. He speaks of his people rebuilding their walls which were damaged and fell into disrepair during the Babylonian invasion.

It is quite evident that the Gospel writers, notably the writer of Matthew took serious liberties with Old Testament passages in order to force Jesus into them when they were NOT meant for him. It is no surprise the writer does this in Luke 4. He had to have known that Jesus did not bring on that vengeance spoken about by Isaiah, so it was convenient to leave it out but gap theorists of today pick it back up and claim it is for our times as they play loosey goosey with biblical passages.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-30-2010, 09:00 AM
 
21,992 posts, read 16,760,306 times
Reputation: 8767
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
This is where you go wrong.You have no proof that the prophecy must use,over hundreds of years,a prophetic year,an invention unknown before created by dispensationalists.And all your posts referring to the 1260 days of Revelation to not make it so.3 1/2 years was not enough time to need the extra 13th month.What is so hard for you to understand about that?You might as well try to prove that out calendar doesn't add a 29th day in February every 4 years by posting that the time between 3 Christmases is only 1095 days,so therefore,as you like to claim,you have PROVEN that no 29th day exists.

There is no such thing as a 360 prophetic year.It is lame BS made up by desperate dispensationalists.The prophecy was given to the Jews,not to Christians trying to force a prophecy link where there is none.It was to be understood as taking the same amount of time as any other counting of time they did.

It is the lamest of claims to try and posit that for the ancient Jews to understand the correct dating of THEIR prophecy that they would have had to resort to the mathematical chicanery of the modern day dispensationalists.They knew what their calendar said and how it worked.They used it all the time.And they understood that months would get added in on periods of over 6 years.OVER 6 years.Get it?

But if anyone is silly enough to fall for this stuff,well then they deserve to be in that camp.There is a reason the hucksters of televangelism do not try to make their money off of educated mainstream Christians .

And please spare me the "refer back to my post" stuff.Your posts,however much you might want to think so,are not authoritative.They are your speculation based on what you have been taught,along with weak evidences you choose to believe to keep your theology intact.Nothing more.
Trying to get through to people like you is an exercise in futility. I have shown you directly from the Scriptures which are again listed below that a 360 day year is in view. You continue to deny it. You are forced to deny it in order to retain your position.

Revelation 11:2 ''And leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. 42 months is 3 1/2 years.

Revelation 11:3 ''And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days... 1260 days divided by 3.5 years is 360 days. There are 3 1/2 360 day years mentioned here, which is one half of the tribulation.

Those two verses confirm that a 360 day year is in view here. This is one half of the remaining 7 years of the 490 years of Daniels prophecy.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she might be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. This is the beginning of the second half of the Tribulation. It begins with the breaking of the convenant by the antichrist with Israel, and the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel. Daniel 9:27 ''And he (the antichrist) will make a firm covenant with the many for one week (that is at the beginning of the last 7 years of the prophecy-the beginning of the tribulation.), BUT in the middle of the week(1260 days, 3 1/2 360 day years) he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decred, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.''

The middle of the week is the beginning of the last half of the Tribulation, which is called the great tribulation.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies; and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

Revelation 12:14 And the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, on order that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

A time is one year. Times is two years. And half a time is a half year. That is 3 1/2 years. One half of the seven year period.

And I do refer whoever will, to back to posts #18, 22, 27, and 45. If you are a preterist, don't bother. Just keep your head buried in the past.

483 Years of the 490 years of Daniels prophecy have been historically fulfilled. That is a fact and cannot be truthfully denied. That leaves only seven more years of the prophecy to be fulfilled. Now preterists are forced to deny this. They will not listen to the facts, and beyond all reason insist that all prophecy has already been fulfilled.

We are living in the dispensation of the church. It began on the day of Pentecost and will continue until God brings it to a close with the rapture of the church. Once the church has been raptured, there will be a seven year period known as the tribulation. Those are the last seven years belonging to the dispensation of Israel. They are also, the last seven years remaining in Daniels 490 year prophecy.

In the meantime, the clock has stopped regarding the prophecy.

Below, I repeat what I presented in post #22 with regard to the fact that there can be gaps of time in a prophecy. In the Isaiah 61 prophecy, the first and second advents of Christ are in view, with the entire church-age separating them, and with no mention of the church-age made, because the church age was kept under wraps until, Jesus began teaching about it during His ministry.

From post #22.

''As an example of what I mean, compare the prophecy of Isaiah 61, which covers the entire chapter of 11 verses; with Jesus' fulfillment of only verse 1 and the first part of verse 2 of that prophecy at His first Advent, while the remainder of the prophecy is to be fulfilled at His second coming. In between, is the entire Church-age which was kept hidden in the Old Testament. To put it another way, the entire dispensation of the church, the time in which we are now living, takes place between Isa 61:2a and Isa 61:2b. Again, between the first and second half of Isa 61:2, the entire church-age unfolds with absolutely no indication given that there would be more than two thousand years in between. Luke 4:18 records the fulfillment of Isaiah 61:1-2a.


Isa. 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives, And freedom to prisoners; [2] To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD, (The entire Church-age fits in right here), [The rest of this prophecy is to be fulfilled at the second coming of the Lord]--> and the day of vengence of our God; To comfort all who mourn,...(and on to the end of the chapter).

Now Luke 4:18 leading into it with verse 17. 'And the booK of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book, and found the place where it was written, [18] ''THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE DOWNTRODDEN, [19] TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.''

At that point Jesus stopped reading because He had just fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 61 up through Isa 61:2a. The rest of the prophecy will be fulfilled at the Second Advent of Christ.

Again, my point in presenting all this is to show that a given prophecy may have a great deal of time in between its complete fulfillment. And so it is with the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27. Between the first 483 years of the prophecy and the last 7 years, is the entire Church-age. The last seven years of the prophecy are to be fulfilled after the church has been taken off the earth at the rapture. The last seven years of the 490 years is the Tribulation.''


In like manner, the last seven years of the 490 year prophecy are separated from the first 483 years which have already been fulfilled, by the church-age. They are yet to be fulfilled.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top