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Old 06-30-2010, 09:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
This is where you go wrong.You have no proof that the prophecy must use,over hundreds of years,a prophetic year,an invention unknown before created by dispensationalists.And all your posts referring to the 1260 days of Revelation to not make it so.3 1/2 years was not enough time to need the extra 13th month.What is so hard for you to understand about that?You might as well try to prove that out calendar doesn't add a 29th day in February every 4 years by posting that the time between 3 Christmases is only 1095 days,so therefore,as you like to claim,you have PROVEN that no 29th day exists.

There is no such thing as a 360 prophetic year.It is lame BS made up by desperate dispensationalists.The prophecy was given to the Jews,not to Christians trying to force a prophecy link where there is none.It was to be understood as taking the same amount of time as any other counting of time they did.

It is the lamest of claims to try and posit that for the ancient Jews to understand the correct dating of THEIR prophecy that they would have had to resort to the mathematical chicanery of the modern day dispensationalists.They knew what their calendar said and how it worked.They used it all the time.And they understood that months would get added in on periods of over 6 years.OVER 6 years.Get it?

But if anyone is silly enough to fall for this stuff,well then they deserve to be in that camp.There is a reason the hucksters of televangelism do not try to make their money off of educated mainstream Christians .

And please spare me the "refer back to my post" stuff.Your posts,however much you might want to think so,are not authoritative.They are your speculation based on what you have been taught,along with weak evidences you choose to believe to keep your theology intact.Nothing more.
Hi lifertexan

Which is why the Daniel prophecy used seventy sevens not 490 years. If you say 490 years, hit the buzzer; you have changed the prophecy. It meant 70 sabbatical years which would contain the leap months. Yet why would changing the prophesy bother anyone who adds a stop watch?
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Old 06-30-2010, 10:04 AM
 
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Thing is the rapture's been imminent for 2000 years. The apostle Paul certainly thought it would happen in his lifetime. Yet according to futurists the rapture couldn't happen until the prophecy of Israel being restored in the last days had occurred. Paul was certainly aware of Moses' prophecy in Deuteronomy about the Jewish people being scattered over the earth for a few millennia so either Paul was wrong or the futurists are. Doesn't line up. And if the rapture has been imminent for 2000 years then it's probably imminent for another 4000. Well, that's okay. I can wait.
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Old 06-30-2010, 10:52 AM
 
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 4,007,465 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
[sarcasm made to prove a point]Ahh...my Texan friend...the Jews are "blind" because of their rejection of Christ so they have NO clue about these finer details of prophetic scripture like holy ghost filled special Christians who have been chosen to see things the average man cannot see.[/sarcasm made to prove a point]

Further up the page Mike mentioned the "gap theory." This is a fine device used by later Christians to explain away the unexplainable or simply, to avoid the clear embarrassment. Simply put, if an ENTIRE prophecy does not or did not come pass, simply claim that god authored part of it to be fulfilled back then with the other part left to be fulfilled later.

The passage that Mike mentioned in Isaiah which Jesus quotes (so says the Gospel writer) is supposed to be an example of this. Apparently it is completely impossible for Mike to consider the other possibility and that is, the writer realized that there was NO end time judgment that came about when Jesus was here so why mention it as part of the prophecy Jesus was supposedly fulfilling? Full stop the prophecy and limit it to his preaching (which he did) and leave the rest of the prophesy for some indertiminate period of time well into the future.

Here are the two passages next to each other:

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,
Because the LORD has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn..." (Isaiah 61:1-2)

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,To set at liberty those who are oppressed; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD..." (Luke 4:18-19)

The writer goes on to tell us that Jesus closed the book of Isaiah AFTER reciting up the words "To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD" even though the book of Isaiah's words continue on. The gap theorists use this example to point out that god places gaps within prophecies or, "dual-prophesies" they call them. They say that Jesus' FIRST coming was simply to preach deliverance (the first part of the prophesy) but the next half which speaks of judgment (which Jesus does not touch, is for a future time). This sounds plausible (I think), however, when one continues to read the original sripture in Isaiah, the writer is CLEARLY writing to the exiled community in Babylon circa late 500s/early 600s BC and not people living in the 21st century. He speaks of his people rebuilding their walls which were damaged and fell into disrepair during the Babylonian invasion.

It is quite evident that the Gospel writers, notably the writer of Matthew took serious liberties with Old Testament passages in order to force Jesus into them when they were NOT meant for him. It is no surprise the writer does this in Luke 4. He had to have known that Jesus did not bring on that vengeance spoken about by Isaiah, so it was convenient to leave it out but gap theorists of today pick it back up and claim it is for our times as they play loosey goosey with biblical passages.
The word of God is a two edged sword. That means what was meant for the people of the time will also have a dual meaning for the future.

It is correct, Jesus who is God closed the book of Isaiah for a time. He came first as the suffering servant (as written by Isaiah), but will come as a conquerer and Judge the second time.

This is understood by the followers of God's Son. As it is written: "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." (Daniel 12:10)

It is written: "A wise man saves souls" So, wisdom belongs to the Servants of Jesus Christ who tell of the saving grace of Jesus Christ. These are the ones who understand.
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Old 06-30-2010, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,667,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
The word of God is a two edged sword. That means what was meant for the people of the time will also have a dual meaning for the future.
NO it means that it cuts both ways... there is no escape from the word of God... Has nothing to do with a dual meaning!

Quote:
It is correct, Jesus who is God closed the book of Isaiah for a time. He came first as the suffering servant (as written by Isaiah), but will come as a conquerer and Judge the second time.
He did... The DESTRUCTION of the house of Israel IS the fulfillment as that is who Jesus came to show the word of God to.

Quote:
This is understood by the followers of God's Son. As it is written: "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." (Daniel 12:10)

It is written: "A wise man saves souls" So, wisdom belongs to the Servants of Jesus Christ who tell of the saving grace of Jesus Christ. These are the ones who understand.
The understanding of spiritual things is understood by spirit. The carnal mind believes there is a 2000+ year gap in the prophecy... if so it is not just an unfulfilled prophecy but a false one!

To each his own, I guess.
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Old 06-30-2010, 11:01 AM
 
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 4,007,465 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
This is where you go wrong.You have no proof that the prophecy must use,over hundreds of years,a prophetic year,an invention unknown before created by dispensationalists.And all your posts referring to the 1260 days of Revelation to not make it so.3 1/2 years was not enough time to need the extra 13th month.What is so hard for you to understand about that?You might as well try to prove that out calendar doesn't add a 29th day in February every 4 years by posting that the time between 3 Christmases is only 1095 days,so therefore,as you like to claim,you have PROVEN that no 29th day exists.

There is no such thing as a 360 prophetic year.It is lame BS made up by desperate dispensationalists.The prophecy was given to the Jews,not to Christians trying to force a prophecy link where there is none.It was to be understood as taking the same amount of time as any other counting of time they did.

It is the lamest of claims to try and posit that for the ancient Jews to understand the correct dating of THEIR prophecy that they would have had to resort to the mathematical chicanery of the modern day dispensationalists.They knew what their calendar said and how it worked.They used it all the time.And they understood that months would get added in on periods of over 6 years.OVER 6 years.Get it?

But if anyone is silly enough to fall for this stuff,well then they deserve to be in that camp.There is a reason the hucksters of televangelism do not try to make their money off of educated mainstream Christians .

And please spare me the "refer back to my post" stuff.Your posts,however much you might want to think so,are not authoritative.They are your speculation based on what you have been taught,along with weak evidences you choose to believe to keep your theology intact.Nothing more.
BTW, Christianity is just a sect of Judaism. Christians are Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

In fact, those who practice modern Judaism, do not practice the religion of Moses, but a Rabinical religion based off the Talmud, the teachings of the Rabbis.
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Old 06-30-2010, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,667,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Hi lifertexan

Which is why the Daniel prophecy used seventy sevens not 490 years. If you say 490 years, hit the buzzer; you have changed the prophecy. It meant 70 sabbatical years which would contain the leap months. Yet why would changing the prophesy bother anyone who adds a stop watch?
Are you saying that the gap is the problem and not the counting of years? I would agree but this 360 year thing is annoying as well and leads people to believe it is left unfulfilled which causes them to put in the gap in the first place. IMO.
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Old 06-30-2010, 11:41 AM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,557,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Trying to get through to people like you is an exercise in futility. I have shown you directly from the Scriptures which are again listed below that a 360 day year is in view. You continue to deny it. You are forced to deny it in order to retain your position.

Revelation 11:2 ''And leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. 42 months is 3 1/2 years.

Revelation 11:3 ''And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days... 1260 days divided by 3.5 years is 360 days. There are 3 1/2 360 day years mentioned here, which is one half of the tribulation.

Those two verses confirm that a 360 day year is in view here. This is one half of the remaining 7 years of the 490 years of Daniels prophecy.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she might be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. This is the beginning of the second half of the Tribulation. It begins with the breaking of the convenant by the antichrist with Israel, and the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel. Daniel 9:27 ''And he (the antichrist) will make a firm covenant with the many for one week (that is at the beginning of the last 7 years of the prophecy-the beginning of the tribulation.), BUT in the middle of the week(1260 days, 3 1/2 360 day years) he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decred, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.''

The middle of the week is the beginning of the last half of the Tribulation, which is called the great tribulation.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies; and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

Revelation 12:14 And the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, on order that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

A time is one year. Times is two years. And half a time is a half year. That is 3 1/2 years. One half of the seven year period.

And I do refer whoever will, to back to posts #18, 22, 27, and 45. If you are a preterist, don't bother. Just keep your head buried in the past.

483 Years of the 490 years of Daniels prophecy have been historically fulfilled. That is a fact and cannot be truthfully denied. That leaves only seven more years of the prophecy to be fulfilled. Now preterists are forced to deny this. They will not listen to the facts, and beyond all reason insist that all prophecy has already been fulfilled.

We are living in the dispensation of the church. It began on the day of Pentecost and will continue until God brings it to a close with the rapture of the church. Once the church has been raptured, there will be a seven year period known as the tribulation. Those are the last seven years belonging to the dispensation of Israel. They are also, the last seven years remaining in Daniels 490 year prophecy.

In the meantime, the clock has stopped regarding the prophecy.

Below, I repeat what I presented in post #22 with regard to the fact that there can be gaps of time in a prophecy. In the Isaiah 61 prophecy, the first and second advents of Christ are in view, with the entire church-age separating them, and with no mention of the church-age made, because the church age was kept under wraps until, Jesus began teaching about it during His ministry.

From post #22.

''As an example of what I mean, compare the prophecy of Isaiah 61, which covers the entire chapter of 11 verses; with Jesus' fulfillment of only verse 1 and the first part of verse 2 of that prophecy at His first Advent, while the remainder of the prophecy is to be fulfilled at His second coming. In between, is the entire Church-age which was kept hidden in the Old Testament. To put it another way, the entire dispensation of the church, the time in which we are now living, takes place between Isa 61:2a and Isa 61:2b. Again, between the first and second half of Isa 61:2, the entire church-age unfolds with absolutely no indication given that there would be more than two thousand years in between. Luke 4:18 records the fulfillment of Isaiah 61:1-2a.


Isa. 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives, And freedom to prisoners; [2] To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD, (The entire Church-age fits in right here), [The rest of this prophecy is to be fulfilled at the second coming of the Lord]--> and the day of vengence of our God; To comfort all who mourn,...(and on to the end of the chapter).

Now Luke 4:18 leading into it with verse 17. 'And the booK of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book, and found the place where it was written, [18] ''THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE DOWNTRODDEN, [19] TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.''

At that point Jesus stopped reading because He had just fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 61 up through Isa 61:2a. The rest of the prophecy will be fulfilled at the Second Advent of Christ.

Again, my point in presenting all this is to show that a given prophecy may have a great deal of time in between its complete fulfillment. And so it is with the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27. Between the first 483 years of the prophecy and the last 7 years, is the entire Church-age. The last seven years of the prophecy are to be fulfilled after the church has been taken off the earth at the rapture. The last seven years of the 490 years is the Tribulation.''


In like manner, the last seven years of the 490 year prophecy are separated from the first 483 years which have already been fulfilled, by the church-age. They are yet to be fulfilled.
Trying to get through to me is an exercise in futility?Let's look at your post.I specifically pointed out that trying to use a 3 1/2 month period to validate the existence of some bogus prophetic year across 500 years is worthless BECAUSE the 3 1/2 year period is not yet long enough to warrant adding the extra month.And what do you do?You go right back and refer to it again.THAT is being dense.

What part of the fact that the Jewish calendar added these months every 6 years so escapes you?What part of the fact that any time period less than 6 years is worthless for proving the existence of a supposed prophetic year?Why can't you deal in time periods longer than 6 years to prove your bogus prophetic year?WHY?Please answer this directly instead of rehashing disproven claims over and over.
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Old 06-30-2010, 11:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
BTW, Christianity is just a sect of Judaism. Christians are Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

In fact, those who practice modern Judaism, do not practice the religion of Moses, but a Rabinical religion based off the Talmud, the teachings of the Rabbis.
Since I am a Christian,I am aware that Christianity comes out of Judaism.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:41 PM
 
21,804 posts, read 16,674,400 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
Trying to get through to me is an exercise in futility?Let's look at your post.I specifically pointed out that trying to use a 3 1/2 month period to validate the existence of some bogus prophetic year across 500 years is worthless BECAUSE the 3 1/2 year period is not yet long enough to warrant adding the extra month.And what do you do?You go right back and refer to it again.THAT is being dense.

What part of the fact that the Jewish calendar added these months every 6 years so escapes you?What part of the fact that any time period less than 6 years is worthless for proving the existence of a supposed prophetic year?Why can't you deal in time periods longer than 6 years to prove your bogus prophetic year?WHY?Please answer this directly instead of rehashing disproven claims over and over.
This is going to be my last post on this. It is obvious that your mind is closed.

For those who will listen...

The prophecy of Daniel 9:24 concerns 490 years. Of those 490 years, 483 years have been fulfilled. Verse 25 refers to seven weeks followed by sixty-two weeks. These weeks of course refer to years. So the seven weeks is actually 49 years. This is followed by the sixty-two weeks which is actually 434 years. That is 483 years. Jesus was crucified after the completion of those 483 years. He was crucified in 33 A. D.

Now some 37 years passed between the crucifixion of Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple is mentioned in verse 26.

There is already a gap of 37 years between the fulfillment of the first 483 years and the destruction of the temple. That already establishes that the last seven years didn't immediately follow the first 483 years.

Now after Jerusalem's and the temple's destruction in 70 A.D, mentioned in Dan 9:26, the rest of the prophecy mentions that the 'prince who is to come' mentioned in verse 26 (this is the beast-the antichrist) will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering...

Now, the city and the temple were destroyed 37 years after Christ was crucified. So already, there is a break in between the first 483 years of the prophecy and the final seven years which is still in our future. The temple was gone. Jerusalem was in ruins. THERE WAS NO TEMPLE AFTER 70 A.D. And until 1949 A. D. there was no nation Israel. There is still no temple. Yet, Daniel 9:27 states that the prince who is to come will make a covenant with Israel for one week (the final seven years.) He will break that covenant after 3 1/2 years and erect a statue of himself in the temple. THERE HAS BEEN NO TEMPLE SINCE IT WAS DESTROYED IN 70 A.D. The temple is to be rebuilt at the beginning of the tribulation which will begin after the church-age has been termnated by the rapture.

Jesus spoke in Matthew 24:15 of the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel. Jesus said ''therefore when you see the abomination of desolaton which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand) [16] let him who is on the housetop not go down to get the things out that are in his house...'' skipping to verse 21, ''for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.'' (The great tribulation is the second half of the seven year tribulation period).

The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D can in no way be considered to be great tribulation such as the world has never seen.

Verse 22 continues. ''And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short,

Skipping again to verse 27, ''For just as the lighting comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so shall the comng of the Son of Man be.

So the covenant which is made by the prince who is to come-the beast-the antichrist, concerns Israel. Israel ceased to exist as a nation as of 70 A.D. The covenant will be broken after 3 1/2 years and the abomination of desolation will occur in the temple which has not as of yet been rebuilt.

At the end of this still to come Tribulation which is the last seven years of the 490 years, Jesus Christ returns to the earth in a way described as lightning flashing from the east to the west. THIS HAS NOT HAPPENED AS OF YET. THE LORD'S RETURN IS STILL FUTURE AND COMES AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION.

Until the church is raptured off the earth into Heaven, the last seven years of Daniels prophecy will not be fulfilled.

Again. This is my last post on this thread. The Scriptures are clear, as I have shown, that the last seven years of the 490 years are to be fulfilled in the future.

All of this is easily researched.

None of what has been written here is going to cause those who are preteristic, unless they will open their eyes, to admit their error. And I am not going to continue to waste my time.

Readers may refer back to posts # 18, 22, 27, 45, and 60, as well as this post.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:41 PM
 
11,228 posts, read 11,254,000 times
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Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post


really thrillabyte.
You crack me up, Betsy. FINAL ANSWER!!!!!

Last edited by thrillobyte; 06-30-2010 at 07:00 PM..
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