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Man is born spiritually dead. He is born without any relationship with God. And he is totally helpless to do anything about it. That is what totally depraved refers to. To be born spiritually dead as a result of having Adam's original sin imputed to the genetically formed Old sin nature.
I disagree. Children are born corruptible - not dead. God calls us FROM THE WOMB, so there is no way we are born spiritually dead. You are simply repeating things you've been taught by other men, not things the Holy Spirit revealed to you.
Mike..you have it wrong. Limited Atonement is described as the work of Christ is only made effective in the believer's profession and salvation. It describes that the atonement, although universal, is only limited because of the amount of people who are saved is limited and not all.
The work is good for everyone. Read up some more on it. I have stated the case.
The Atonement of Christ can't be both unlimited and limited. Yes, the work of Christ is only applied to or made effective for those who believe. I know what you are trying to say, but you are giving atonement a meaning it doesn't have. Atonement isn't limited because of the fact that only those who believe in Christ receive the benefits of it. Atonement is unlimited because Christ made reparations for all. The fact that many will not believe in Christ doesn't negate the fact that He made atonement for them.
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Introduction
As always, we begin our introduction with a definition. ‘Unlimited atonement’ is defined as- ‘the efficacious work of Christ on the Cross on behalf of all mankind.’ The English noun atonement means reconciliation after enmity or controversy, and includes reparation made for wrong or injury. The verb has several related meanings, such as ‘to be at one, to be in accordance, to make reparation or amends, to make up for errors or deficiencies, to reconcile.’ In the OT, the meaning of atonement is related to the Hebrew verb rapfk kaphar- ‘pass over, cover.’
Even Calvinist's argue among themselves over this. Five point Calvinists believe in limited Atonement, whereas 4 point Calvinist's are more likely to accept the reality of unlimited atonement.
I disagree. Children are born corruptible - not dead. God calls us FROM THE WOMB, so there is no way we are born spiritually dead. You are simply repeating things you've been taught by other men, not things the Holy Spirit revealed to you.
Heartsong
To the contrary. Man is born spiritually dead. That is why man must be born again. Regeneration is being born again and is the result of the Holy Spirit's renewing when a person believes in Christ. Titus 3:5 He saved us not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit [6] whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior.
God knows every believer from eternity past. That in no way negates the fact that everyone is born spiritually dead. Adam was told by God as recorded in Gen. 2:17 'but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it, dying (spiritually) you shall surely die (Physically). In the original Hebrew, this is made clear. Adam died spiritually the moment he ate the fruit. He died physically many hundreds of years later.
Since the fall of Adam, all men are born physically alive, but spiritually dead. Separated from God in Time. That is why they must be born again.
God planted seed in his field, which is the world. The seed is in every man. There is life in God's seed. That is how he is able to call us by His Spirit. Granted, we are tied to a dead corpse as well. But it is the Spirit that gives man the breath of life and makes him a living soul. It is the soul that needs saving in this world (the mind, will and emotions that are in bondage from birth).
May I ask, how old are you and how long have you been born again?
God planted seed in his field, which is the world. The seed is in every man. There is life in God's seed. That is how he is able to call us by His Spirit. Granted, we are tied to a dead corpse as well. But it is the Spirit that gives man the breath of life and makes him a living soul. It is the soul that needs saving in this world (the mind, will and emotions that are in bondage from birth).
May I ask, how old are you and how long have you been born again?
Heartsong
No. the seed is not in every man. God calls through the Gospel, which the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common grace makes perspicacious to the spiritually dead hearer of the gospel.
Adam was created with body, soul, and spirit. When he died spiritually he became a dichotomous being, with only body and soul. Once he was born again, his human spirit was regenerated. Since the fall of Adam, all members of the human race are born as a dichotomous being, with only body and soul. It is only if a person believes in Christ that he receives a human spirit. The soul is that part of the man which is concerned with natural things, and cannot understand spiritual phenomenon. The soul contains emotion, intellect, volition, conscience, and self consciousness. It is only when the person has been born again and receives a human spirit that he can have a relationship with God. It is the human spirit to which God the Father imputes His eternal life and His perfect righteousness. Then as a trichotomous being, body, soul, and spirit, that man is saved.
If a person refuses to believe in Christ then, he will be the recipient of Jesus' warning. Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him (God) who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
I am 56 and have been saved since I was five. More than half a century.
The Atonement of Christ can't be both unlimited and limited. Yes, the work of Christ is only applied to or made effective for those who believe. I know what you are trying to say, but you are giving atonement a meaning it doesn't have. Atonement isn't limited because of the fact that only those who believe in Christ receive the benefits of it. Atonement is unlimited because Christ made reparations for all. The fact that many will not believe in Christ doesn't negate the fact that He made atonement for them.
Mike, Calvinism does not give a menaing to atonement that it doesn't have, it applies the atonement in the sense of man accepting it as limited, not the scope of its power. The limitation is not in the power of it, but in the amount of men that will accept it. This is where most err in understanding it.
And yes....I do argue with Calvinists, not on this subject, but more so on Free Will.
God's omniscience knew from the recesses of the datelessness of eternity past, all things that would ever come to pass. His omniscience recognized all that would ever be a reality, but also knew all the potential alternate realities that might have been, but remained merely potential. In other words, with regard to man's free will, God in His omniscience knew every actual decision of every person in human history, and all of the ramifications of those decisions, with all of the causes and effects that would be involved. Further, the omniscience of God knew all of the potential alternate decisions that every person who would ever live might of made, but did not, and all of the potential results of those alternate decisions had they actually been made. In knowing every decision that every person would ever make, God decreed that those decisions would certainly come to pass. In contrast, since the potential alternate decisions were left in the realm of 'what might of been', God did not decree them. Only that which is reality has been decreed by God.
You'd think it would have been more convenient to only create people he knew would accept Jesus. That way you get both free will (no robots) and no one in hell which sounds like win-win, but whatever.
Also if God provides means of accepting Jesus to everyone who he knew in advance would accept him, that implies that there where no decent people (or truth seeking, if you prefer) in places like Africa, South and North America and most of Asia before missionaries came? So God started allowing for truth seeking people to be born in some region only at the same time when Christianity came to that region? That would mean that people born before that date where fundamentally different in their thinking than those born after, which seems unlikely.
There are certain theological positions that either overemphasize the sovereignty of God, or overemphasize the love of God, and deny the existence of man's volition or free will.
Hyper-calvinism and universalism both distort the essence of God in such ways. Hyper-calvinism is a distortion of calvinism which itself is a heresy. Cavinism basically says that God sovereignly decides to save some and to leave others unsaved, irrespective of man's volition. Hyper-calvinism denies that God calls all men through the Gospel. It denies that fallen man has a responsibility to repent and believe the gospel of God’s grace in Jesus Christ. Further, hyper-calvinism denies that all men should be evangelized. The Hyper-Calvinistic position is that one must not say "Christ died for you" because you can't know whether or not Christ died for the specific person that you would be saying that to. The hyper-Calvinist will say only that "Christ died for sinners" and leave the rest to the Holy Spirit. The thinking being that though all men are sinners, Christ did not die for all sinners. Again, that is heresy.
Christian Universalism, the term itself being an oxymoron, also distorts God's sovereignty, as well as God's love, in the unscriptural belief that God will ultimately save all men, regardless of whether they rejected Christ or not. The idea is that God will give them an opportunity to believe in Christ after they depart this life. The teachings of universalism are contrary to the major doctrines of Christianity and were declared to be heresy by the Council of Constantinople in 543 A.D. Among the various types of so called Christian Universalism is Calvinistic Universalism which combines God's love and sovereignty as the rationale for the belief that God will save all.
It is not my intention to go into detail about these heretical belief systems. They are mentioned only with regard to their denial of man's free will.
It is by God's sovereign decision that man has free will. God's sovereignty and man's volition co-exist in human history. To understand why God gave and honor's man's free will, it us helpful to understand the divine decrees. To make it easier for the finite mind of man to undestand, it is useful to think in terms of the plural 'decrees.' In reality, there was in eternity past one overall decree of God which covers reality in its entirety.
Perhaps the best definition of the Divine decrees was given by Robert B. Thieme Jr. of Berachah Church of Houston TX.
''The decree of God is His eternal, holy, wise, and sovereign purpose, comprehendng at once all things that ever were or will be--in their causes, courses, conditions, successions, and relations--and determining their certain futurition.''
God's omniscience knew from the recesses of the datelessness of eternity past, all things that would ever come to pass. His omniscience recognized all that would ever be a reality, but also knew all the potential alternate realities that might have been, but remained merely potential. In other words, with regard to man's free will, God in His omniscience knew every actual decision of every person in human history, and all of the ramifications of those decisions, with all of the causes and effects that would be involved. Further, the omniscience of God knew all of the potential alternate decisions that every person who would ever live might of made, but did not, and all of the potential results of those alternate decisions had they actually been made. In knowing every decision that every person would ever make, God decreed that those decisions would certainly come to pass. In contrast, since the potential alternate decisions were left in the realm of 'what might of been', God did not decree them. Only that which is reality has been decreed by God.
The divine decrees make certain everything that happens in the universe. God in His sovereignty decided to give both angels and man free will, and He decreed that angelic and human decisions would certainly take place. That includes the decisions that are contrary to His will. In deciding to give man and angels free will, God necessarily had to allow decisions that are contrary to His perfect will, to occur.
God didn't want robots that had no choice. He wanted free will creatures that would respond to Him of their own volition. Everything that the three members of the Godhead do is for their own pleasure as well as for their own glory. Before He created the universe, the members of the trinity co-existed in status quo equality with each other and enjoyed perfect happiness and a perfect relationship with each other. It pleased God to create free will beings known as angels, and to create the universe as a home for them. God had always known the angel which we know by his title of Satan, would rebel and persuade one third of the angels to rebel with Him. It wasn't God's desire for this to happen, but because He honors free will in His creatures, God allowed as a part of His permissive will, for it to happen. And so, He decreed that it would happen. God decreed that it would happen, because in His omniscience He knew that the angels would decide to rebel and so decreed that it would certainly be so. Knowing that this rebellion would occur, God allowed it to happen. And so in the divine decree; and remember that it is one overall decree which comprehends all things which will ever occur and determines their certain futurition, God decreed how He would handle the situation. Therefore, He decreed the existance of another free will creature called man, and decreed that the free will of man would resolve the angelic conflict that came about as a result of the angelic rebellion.
God had sentenced Satan to the lake of fire, but the sentence is not to be carried out until the end of human history. It pleased God to demonstrate to His creation, that He was justified in sentencing the fallen angels to the lake of fire. And He created man as a part of that demonstration. During human history, God is also allowing Satan to prove his claim that he is as good as God (Isa 14:13,14). And again, all that God does is for His pleasure and for His glory.
To understand the decrees, understand that God has three different kinds of knowledge. 1.) He has self-knowledge: Each of the three members of the trinity knows everything about Himself and the other members of the trinity. 2) Omniscience: God knows everything that is external to Him. He knows all things about both believer's and unbelievers, and all of their actual and potential decisions. God decreed the actual decisions knowing that those decisions would be made. He did not decree the possible decisions because those decisions were not actually made. 3.) Foreknowledge: God's foreknowledge is concerned with only what is in the decrees.
God's omniscience results in the divine decrees, which result in God's foreknowledge which pertains only to the actual, and excludes the mere potential.
The divine decree does not cause or effect any event. It simply establishes what will be caused by the volitional choices of each individual. The decree did not cause you to make a decision or take an action. It is your own free will that is the cause. God knew in eternity past that you would make a certain decision, that you would take a certain action, and therefore He included it in His plan. In His decree.
God knew that Adam would disobey Him and eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God therefore decreed that it would certainly happen. And God knew all of the ramifications of Adam's decision and decreed them as well.
God works His plan to His glory, and for His pleasure, while allowing man's free will to function.
Understand that man can do nothing apart from God's permission. Nothing can even exist apart from God's will. God's will has three categories.
1.) God's directive will: It was God the Father's directive will that Jesus Christ go to the cross. Jesus of course agreed to this in eternity past.
2) God's overruling will: God's overruling will does not allow a decision of man to have its intended effect. For instance, man is self-destructive. Left to his own devices, the human race would sooner or later destroy itself. God will not allow man's free will to get so far out of hand as to destroy the human race.
3.) God's permissive will: God's permissive will allows man to sin, allows evil to exist, and allows man to reject Christ as Savior. This is contrary to God's perfect will which would have all men be saved and to refrain from sin and evil. But He allows it for the purpose of resolving the angelic conflict.
God is not the author of sin, evil, or human good. Man's free will is the source of all of these things.
God so designed His plan to incorporate every decision, every action, and every event, and all of their causes and conditions, and weave them into one indivisible system, with eack link being a part of the whole. And all without violating human volition.
God causes some things to happen. He permits other things to happen. But He does not coerce human volition. He provides guidance which includes divine discipline, so that we might use our volition properly. But He does not coerce.
God works all things to His glory. Every thought, decision, and action in the history of mankind will be to the glory of God. God's Glory has eternally existed and will continue to eternally exist. Man can do nothing to hinder or interfere with God's glory. Those who die having rejected Christ will go to hell, and God's glory will be unaffected and uncompromised. Those who accept Christ as Savior will have eternal life in the presence of God, and that will glorify God.
Following are a number of passages which demonstrate the free will of man.
Ezekiel 3:6 ...But I have sent you to them who should listen to you; [7] yet the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you, snice they are not willing to listen to Me. Surely the whole house of Israel is stubborn and obstinate.
Matthew 22:3 ''And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding frast, and they wre unwilling to come.
Luke 13:34 ''O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!.
Luke 7:50 And He said to the woman, ''Your faith has saved you; go in peace.''
John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me that you may have life.
Acts 7:51 ''You men who are stiff-necked and ucircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; You are doing just what your fathers did.
Acts 14:2 But the Jews who disbelieved stirred up the minds of the Gentiles, and embittered them against the brethren.
Acts 19:9 But when some were becoming hardened and disobedient, speaking evil of the Way before the multitude, he withdrew from them and took away the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.
Hebrews 2:3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?
Revelation 2:21 'And I gave her time to repent; and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
For more on the divine decrees, go here...
DOCTRINE OF (http://www.rick-henderson.com/hspm/bill_kesler/DIVINE_DECREES.html - broken link)
By the way, this is all orthodox Biblical theology. It is not often taught anymore. So for those who are interested, it is to your advantage to study this and take it to heart.
Some men have many words to speak that comes from Man's wisdom. They only repeats what 'agreeing' men have spoken and takes what they say as truth. They are incapable of thinking for themselves.
Mike lists a few scholarly quotes of his scholars as to impress us. "Tell me Mike, I listed many as well, does that mean I am right then?"
All can go to this thread and see how Mike 'conveniently' dodges all my questions. Simple questions like "Did you choose Christ?" and "Does everybody have the Holy Spirit?" Simple Yes or No answers he cannot supply. He dodges many verses posted before him. He also backs himself into a corner of TRUTH by his own words.
Also, I have presented the below words to Mike MANY times, but he states that it is a waste of time to address them with me. He writes much MUCH words to defend his doctrine, but has no time for SCIPTURES (I want answers to them all Mike). To this date I and Mike have only talked about 2 scriptures out of the plethora listed below. Let us see if he will answer or have the 'time' to answer them now, being he started a thread on 'freewill'.
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No one is saying that man does NOT have a will. I am just saying that man’s will is NOT FREE of the manipulation of God’s will.
Read ALL (please read all of it) of this and tell me WHERE you find man’s FREEWILL in it.
Does man have a free will?
Here we have the Israelites NOT YET passing over the Jordan and God tells us what they are going to do there, BEFORE they do it. He even has Moses script a song as a witness to it.
Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up (in the future?), and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
Deu 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.
Now come on, who can do this but God Himself. Actually, all that they do there MUST happen or else how can it come to be an “ensample” to us. He sets their future, because he can…..
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Man can only follow God because He ‘causes’ them to do so…
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause (Heb: make) you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Jer 24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
And if they do not see or hear his calling, it is because God “causes” them not to…
Rom. 11:7,8 God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear".
It is God who moves one to do this or that….
2 Pet 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Here is a good example of someone who “thinks” he has something called a “free will”….
Mar 14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered. Mar 14:28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee. Mar 14:29 But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.
This was written back in Zec 13:7 centuries before hand (therefore, it MUST come to pass). Now here is Jesus telling Peter that he WILL be offended. Of course Peter's "free will" (that he thinks he has) says he will not be offended. I am sure that Peter was sincere with his decision. But we all know Peter was offended and denied Jesus three times.
God works these things in people, the people have no control over it.
Jas 4:13-15 Go to now, ye that say, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Jas 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? ……….. Jas 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
He knew you “intimately” before you were born and BEFORE your supposed ’free will’ even existed. He knows exactly what you are going to do during your life……
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works [not anything WE do], but of him [God] that calleth Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth [our wills, free or otherwise], nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. Rom 9:17 For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (According to you EVERYBODY can) Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
God makes and controls the honorable AND the dishonorable vessels. Even those who go against His own people….
Psa 105:24 And he increased his people greatly; and made them stronger than their enemies.
Psa 105:25 He turned their heart (Egypt) to hate his people, to deal subtlely with his servants
Before Moses even went to lead God’s people out of Egypt, God stated this to Moses…
Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. (Also See ...Exo 7:3, 9:12, 14:4, 14:17, 7:13-14, 7:22, 9:12, 9:35, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:8).
Not only that who hardened the heart of ALL OF THE EGYPTIANS to follow after the Israelites?
Exo 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honor upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.
He didn’t just single Pharaoh out to do this, He does it to whomever He wishes
Joshua 11:20 For it was of the Lord to harden their [the Canaanites'] hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that He might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Moses.
God predestines ALL to His own will….
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
God predestines according to his purpose of HIS will not our choices. He "worketh ALL things", including our wills.
Pro 20:24 Man's goings [Heb: steps] are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
“The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.” (Prov. 16:1).
And does the "free will" of a certain man cause himself to be wicked? No, God does that too.
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Surely man has control to plan his own way, good or bad. No, God does that too.
Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
He controls everything we do.....
Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Here is Pilate's supposed free will speaking……
John 19:10 "Then said Pilate unto Him, Speak you not unto me? Know you not that I HAVE POWER to crucify you, and have POWER TO RELEASE YOU?
But where did this power really come from?
Jesus answered, You could have NO POWER AT ALL against Me, except it were GIVEN YOU from above…" (John 19:11).
Can we really do good, of our own selves?
Jer 13:23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."
Now here is something very VERY interesting. There is, in the Scriptures, an example where God tells us that He uses people to do His will, but that the one being used doesn’t know it, but rather thinks that he himself is doing the choosing and making the decisions and carrying out the intentions of his heart all according to his own presumed "free will", whereas God says that it is He, and not the person being used, Who is in total control of the one being used.
The bible continues to show this truth, and the Truth is saying that THIS is what people want (notice all the my's, me's, I's, Hence “free will”):
This is the King of Assyria talking…. Isa 10:13-14 ......By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by the wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man: And my hand has found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathers eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.
We can plug in what ever we want here, like ...It is because of what I have done or because I chose Christ that am saved.)
What else can Truth continue to say though, but that THIS is what God does with what people Want: (This is God talking!!)
Isa 10:10-12 As my hand has found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria; Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols? Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord has performed His whole work [by using the Assyrians] upon Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria and the glory of his high looks (vs 13-14) .
Because THIS is what the Truth of an all Sovereign God says:
Isa 10:15 Shall the ax [king of Assyria] boast itself [ I, Me, My] against him that hews therewith [God]? Or shall the saw [king of Assyria] magnify itself against Him that saws with it [God] as if the rod [king of Assyria] should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff [king of Assyria] should lift up itself, as if it were no wood
This wood, ax, etc., thinks it is something with free will and the power of self-determinism. Once again the King of Assyria doesn’t even believe in the God of Israel, so surely he took the spoils from Israel and tread them down of his own "free will". Did he?
Isaiah 10:5-8 “O Assyrian, the rod of Mine anger, and the staff in their hand is Mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of My wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. Howbeit HE means not so, neither does HIS heart [his ‘obscured’ heart—Ecc. 3:11] think so; but it is in HIS heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few. For he says, Are not MY princes altogether kings?
Even man's supposed "free will" to do evil is in control of God...
Gen 50:19-20 “And Joseph said unto them [his brothers], Fear not: for am I in the place of God? But as for you, you thought evil against me, but God meant it [the evil they had done] unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.”
What happens to a prophet who is deceived?
Eze 14:9....I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
Well thats understanding, but who deceived the prophet, Satan or the Devil?
Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and …..
Did the ones against Jesus choose to be against him of their own free will?
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined BEFORE to be done.
Man thinks his plans are of his own mind and heart, but who's plan really prevails?
Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.
It is the flesh of man that says he has a "free will", how does flesh and Spirit get along?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Gal 5:18 But if ye BE LED of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Do we repent of our own selves, or is our repentance given to us?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
Man cannot “free will” his way into being a “vessel of honor”, God leads him there. If one be given a “good spirit” then is FROM THE LORD, but if one be given an “evil spirit” it too is FROM THE LORD.
1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit FROM THE LORD troubled him. (1Sa 16:16, 19:9)
Man must realize that God is Soveriegn, which means He has Control of EVERYTHING, even our own wills. Man cannot choose to save himself. Salvation has already been bought since the foundation of the world. You must acknowledge WHAT YOU are, which is a sinner. The day that you see yourself as a worse sinner then Hitler himself…….
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
….is the day you will become closer to God, for your reward is the same. To hold onto one’s supposed “free will” is to remain blind to the truth of WHO is actually in control of ALL things, and He will give you this delusion for a time. But again, remember, it is a delusion. You must come to know what God HIMSELF compares to YOU. You are an AX and He swings YOU. You are His ROD, He uses YOU. You are His STAFF, His CLAY, His POT. None of these things in God’s eyes has a ’freewill’ to guild ITSELF. Do NOT question the POTTER. Man did NOT till the ground FIRST, if He had not tilled FIRST, you would NOT BE. You WILL do what God purposes for you to do. It is an illusion that you hold onto. “Every good thing comes from above”, so why take credit for the GOOD you do, when the GLORY should go to HIM. Man does have a WILL sir, and it is a WILL TO SIN, and none other. The only GOOD will is God’s and whatever good is done by Man has came from God so that man cannot correctly boast (of his own righteous will). If believing is GOOD, than He gave it to you. Every man is a TABERNACLE, and all have a MERCY SEAT. If it is empty (deny thyself, die daily) HE WILL SIT!! If ONE sits there on HIS throne, in His purposed time He will destroy him, but nevertheless HE WILL SIT IN HIS TABERNACLE!! Know this sir, you cannot thwart God’s will.
..............One must stop thinking that all the “If thou does this then….or…if thou does that then….”, utterances of God to mean that He is giving Man a choice, and start thinking that GOD is wanting MAN to know WHAT he (man) is, which is a SINNER. God gave the Israelites these “If thou….” warnings and told Moses WHAT they would follow BEFORE they followed it, and some weren’t even born yet. Pharaoh was given the same “If thou….”, warnings and GOD HIMSELF hardened the Pharaoh to go against them. If one is to keep thinking of these things with such a “carnal” mind, one must then come to the conclusion that the ALL MIGHTY GOD did not actually KNOW where Adam was when he ask the question “…..Where art thou?”
Think about it, it would NOT be so easy for God to do so if they were not ALL sinners (Do not the scripts say that “All have sinned”). This is why ALL have been seen by God as NOT believing, so that He can have mercy on ALL.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (Israel's) unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
The thing that most, who think like you, do not see is that YOU obtained mercy for their (Israel’s) very UNBELIEF. And you “in times past have NOT believed”. So what better way to bring them ALL into unbelief so he can have MERCY on ALL of them (and for one to bring up such claims as in, but it only states “they MAY obtain mercy” and God “MIGHT have mercy”, fails to see that these words MAY and MIGHT were not even penned in the original.). They ALL will have mercy. The salvation of an UNBELIEVING Israel is a mystery that you do not understand as of yet, for the “milk” you drink will not reveal it.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! (but alas, YOU think you have found it)
You must understand that one cannot BELIEVE in God unless He brings them to belief, so if one be NOT believing, it is God who blinds them so. Satan and God are NOT in some constant struggle as some may think, who do you think God sends to do this Evil work? For Satan nor man can do NOTHING without God’s permission. Was it not God who GAVE Satan power over all that Job had??
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD
It begs to question here of just "WHO" the hand of God is. And was it not God who “moved” David to number Israel??
2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he [the Lord] moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (any study of Hebrew and LXX here will show that this is talking of God doing the moving)
And who did He send to do it??
1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
Was not God responsible for the “evil spirit” that was between Abimelech and Shechem??
Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:
If one is blinded because they BELIEVE in a lie, then who is responsible for that LIE being told by a “false prophet”??
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a [lying] spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he [GOD] said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. (also II Chron. 18:21-22)
Man’s own ‘unawares’ are guided by God alone. Sampson’s own parents new that it was “unlawful” to take a wife of the Philistines (Ex. 34:12 & 16). But WHO moved Sampson to do such a thing??
Jdg 14:4 But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel. (the “it” is what Samson was doing).
And what better way to accomplish this then to just allow man to be WHAT he is (sinner), to do what he does best, which is follow the flesh.
Jdg 14:3....Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well.
Man is nothing more than a “sinner”, he does NO good apart from God moving him to do so. He simply does what he is created to do which is SIN. One cannot BELIEVE unless guided to believe.
On behalf of my UR brethren, I must say sorry for repeating these words from another thread, but I want to know what THEY think ALL these verses mean, if it does NOT mean that God is Soveriegn.
If one cannot see that God HIMSELF guides mankind, he must be totally BLINDED by their beliefs. If that is NOT what these verses mean, then please tell us what they mean. If we are SO INCORRECT in our thinking then tell us what they really mean then. To ignore them would only prove our point.
Mike refused to address any of these scriptures, only to give me links to read on the "freewill" of man. In respect to him, I read them. All I read was that Man was given a "choice" since creation and has chosen INCORRECTLY EVERYTIME, except when he was touched by God. This is all through the scripture. All we hear from most of Christianity is "DO....Oh man...DO". All Universalists that I have ever known came to the point of just "KNOWING THAT THEY CANNOT DO IT!!", therefore they dont want to guide themselves with "DO....Oh Man....DO" anymore, but rather let Christ BE THERE MIND instead of their own wills running theirselves. It is so much easier to DIE to one's self (and to WHATEVER will they have, free or otherwise).
If one must hold on to this "idol of the heart" called "freewill", then they MUST contend with these verses I have exposed to them. They will haunt you if you dont. Heck I will haunt you with them. So tell me what they mean if we the "UR's" are so wrong.
Joel...do you have anything edifying to say concerning the topic?
....or is this a personal vendetta I see here against Mike?....stay on topic and deal with the OP, or stay out of the conversation.
Joeallcomm, I like your posts, but I can almost guarantee you that a couple of posters on here will never admit to being wrong even when they are clearly and without a doubt wrong. Won't happen.
They are feeling secure with the god they have wrapped up into a nice and tidy package. It's comforting to them, and they won't let go. Just the way it is.
Don't worry about it.
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