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Old 06-25-2010, 09:51 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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The issue here is that you are both applying LA to Christ's work, when it should only be applied to the limited number of men who will be saved.
This is where everyone errs in the regards to Calvinism.

Christ's work is sufficient for all, but only a LIMITED amount of men will be saved.
That is Limited Atonement.
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Old 06-25-2010, 10:02 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,770,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
That figures......look it up.....it is even on wiki.

Calvinists hold that the atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect

Calvinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I will look it up to make sure I'm not misunderstanding it. I admit that I don't know that much about it, so maybe I somehow misunderstand the short definitions of limited atonement that I've read. My nephew is in Southern Baptist seminary and apparently that's what they teach now. Again, peace to you.
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Old 06-26-2010, 12:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I disagree Mike. The purpose of God drawing us near is precisley what the scriptures teach, Amrminian and Calvinist alike. Interesting you brought this subject up as I debated it some Calvinists a few weeks ago. They have the same misconception as you appear to have, however, myself a claimed Calvinist, believes that, yes, God draws the man to Him, but man makes the choice, not based on control from God, but from Free Will. It is a grey area IMO with Arminian and Calvinism, as I believe both doctrines are in agreement. What makes man make the choice freely, is the realization of His grace, etc, because of God drawing man to Hiim.
It is an intricate relationship of both forces.
Just so it's clear, I'm not Arminian either. That too is a heresy. Arminians believe that a believer can lose his salvation. That quite simply is not true.

There is nothing mystical about the way that God draws man to Him. It is through the Gospel.

5 point Calvinism, which is also called high Calvinism, is between 4 point Calvinism and hyper-calvinism. The acronym TULIP describes classical or 5 point Calvinism.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

The first part is correct. Man is born totally depraved as a result of original sin.

Election is misunderstood by most. With regard to election, all the elect are believers, but not every believer is elect. Election refers to being 'set apart for privilege.' Election falls into 3 categories. 1) The election of Christ, which is unique. 2) The election of Israel. and 3) The election of the Church. Every church-age believer has been elected to equal privilege and equal opportunity as a member of the royal family of God. God elected or chosen believers based on the fact that He knew from eternity past, that from their own volition, they would choose to believe in Christ. We are all born at that time and place in history where God wanted us to be. God chose for certain people to be born during the church-age. And He knew who would believe in Christ. Based on that knowledge, He elected them. Election is the result of God's foreknowledge and is a function of predestination. Predestination simply means that the church-age believer is permanently in union with Jesus Christ through retroactive and current positional truth and therefore shares the destiny of Christ. (Ephesians 1:5). The Church-age believer is permanently related to the plan of Grace through predestination (2 Tim 1:9). Rather than refering to those who are saved, predestination and election refer to the privilege that belongs to those who are saved. In the case of the Church, the privilege that comes from being in union with Christ through the baptism of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13).

For more on election, see here...

DOCTRINE OF (http://www.rick-henderson.com/hspm/bill_kesler/DIVINE_DECREES.html - broken link)


Limited Atonement: This is false. Jesus died for the sins of everyone without exception. Not everyone is saved of course, but everyone's sins were judged at the cross.


Irresistible grace: Differences of opinion as to what is meant by this. But it does not mean that God has determined to save some and not to save others. Or that if God has decided to save you that you cannot resist. It does not mean that.


Perseverance of the Saints: Claims to be eternal security but teaches that if you are saved you will persevere in faith and not fall away. And that if you do fall away, then you weren't saved in the first place. This is false. Once saved always saved is true. But the believer absolutely can fall away, or perhaps more accurately, drift off course. That does not mean falling away from salvation. It simply means to retrogress in the spiritual life into a state of reversionism. At any time in the Christian life, you are either advancing or retrogressing. There is no standing still in your spiritual life. Que non proficit deficit. He who does not advance goes backwards.


Quote:
Calvinists do not believe, that the atonement is limited in its value or power (in other words, God could have elected everyone and used it to atone for them all), but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is designed for some and not all by means of election.

Calvinists hold that the atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect.
See above for the meanng of election.

Quote:
How so?
-------------------------------------
''A main premise of Calvinism is God’s sovereignty and His complete control over everything. This means nothing happens in the world that is outside of God’s control. Another premise of Calvinism is God, in His sovereignty, has arbitrarily decided who will go to Heaven and Hell. God pre-determined (predestined) the eternal state of each person. Those who were chosen (elected) to go to Heaven are called the elect, and those who were chosen to go to Hell are called reprobates.'' (Source: Evangelical Dictionary of Theology p. 186-188.) [Emphasis by bolding mine.]

Biblehelp.org
-------------------------------------

Those are not my words. They are from the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology. God does NOT arbitrarily decide to save some and not to save others. There is no such thing as double predestination. And I explained above what predestination refers to. God saves all who will choose to believe in Christ for salvation and to leave in condemnation all who reject Christ. But that is not arbitrarily deciding to save some and not others.

Last edited by Mike555; 06-26-2010 at 12:21 AM..
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Old 06-26-2010, 01:01 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,758,355 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
BHFT responses in red.
Excellently explained! I tried to Rep you - to no avail. It was my will to do so, but I could not BTW, I still have no understanding of how to make a comment when you Rep someone. I don't see an option for it. Maybe I'll see the light on that if I stick around here.
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Old 06-26-2010, 01:11 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

The first part is correct. Man is born totally depraved as a result of original sin.
Depraved infants? That's such a bad concept. We are born CORRUPTIBLE, not totally depraved. Our experiences in this world have a lot to do with how corrupt we do or do not become while we are here. For example, a child that is neglected and abused has a far higher chance of becoming very corrupt. One thing that Jesus prayed was that God would keep us from being "spotted" by the world (meaning the corrupt world system). Good parents also pray that their children will not become corrupted by the wickedness of the world system because the whole world lies in wickedness. This world is the place where people's souls are corrupted. But to say that we are born totally depraved is wrong. Even Jesus said "let the little children come to me and do not prevent them for of such is the Kingdom of heaven". It is a major bad thing to corrupt or offend a child. I think the doctrine of ET offends children. It did me - and because of it I suffered a lot as a child whose father died when I was age 6, being told that he might not be safe with God - that he might be stuck in a literal burning hell forever. That was a very BAD thing for me spiritually. And I nearly passed that stuff on to my own children, but for the grace of God.

Heartsong
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Old 06-26-2010, 01:43 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,489,596 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Depraved infants? That's such a bad concept. We are born CORRUPTIBLE, not totally depraved. Our experiences in this world have a lot to do with how corrupt we do or do not become while we are here. For example, a child that is neglected and abused has a far higher chance of becoming very corrupt. One thing that Jesus prayed was that God would keep us from being "spotted" by the world (meaning the corrupt world system). Good parents also pray that their children will not become corrupted by the wickedness of the world system because the whole world lies in wickedness. This world is the place where people's souls are corrupted. But to say that we are born totally depraved is wrong. Even Jesus said "let the little children come to me and do not prevent them for of such is the Kingdom of heaven". It is a major bad thing to corrupt or offend a child. I think the doctrine of ET offends children. It did me - and because of it I suffered a lot as a child whose father died when I was age 6, being told that he might not be safe with God - that he might be stuck in a literal burning hell forever. That was a very BAD thing for me spiritually. And I nearly passed that stuff on to my own children, but for the grace of God.

Heartsong

Depraved. Argh.

But for the screaming of my father, for me, which could be the grace of God, if you want to look at it that way. I was going down a horrible path and dragging my kids with me, also. I blame the church, or at least the teachers at the seminaries, because they (if they had half a brain cell) of all people should know. It didn't take too much study on my own to figure it out. I think it might just be that many of the kids sitting in those schools don't want to ruffle feathers and break with tradition. I hate to say such a thing, but it's true. I really don't think many people who have not been brought up with such teachings can imagine what kind of mental and emotional damage those images of hell can do to a child. Especially after they tell you that Jesus loves you. I truly think it's satanic.

Last edited by herefornow; 06-26-2010 at 01:52 AM..
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Old 06-26-2010, 01:47 AM
 
21,804 posts, read 16,674,400 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The issue here is that you are both applying LA to Christ's work, when it should only be applied to the limited number of men who will be saved.
This is where everyone errs in the regards to Calvinism.

Christ's work is sufficient for all, but only a LIMITED amount of men will be saved.
That is Limited Atonement.
Unlimited atonement refers to the fact that the work of Christ on the Cross on behalf of all mankind was efficacious. The word Atonement could actually be used in place of reconciliation. It includes in its meaning, satisfaction or reparation made for a wrong. It means to make amends, to reconcile.

Unlimited Atonement covers sins only. Jesus Christ was judged on the Cross for the sins of the entire human race. Not just for the sins of those who would believe. Rom 5:6; 2 Cor 5:14,15,19; 1 Tim 2:6; 4:10; Tit 2:11; Heb 2:9; 2 Pet 2:1; 1 John 2:2.

Limited Atonement is the false concept hat Christ died only for believers. Atonement is always applied to the work of Christ on the Cross on behalf of mankind. It is not applied to those who will be saved. Christ accomplished the work of Atonement for the entire human race.

Unlimited Atonement means that the unbeliever won't be indicted for sin at the Great White throne judgment. He will be instead be indicted on the basis of his works. Sin was already judged at the Cross, and human good was rejected at the Cross, but not judged. Therefore, human good becomes the basis for the unbelievers judgment.
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Old 06-26-2010, 01:53 AM
 
21,804 posts, read 16,674,400 times
Reputation: 8649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Depraved infants? That's such a bad concept. We are born CORRUPTIBLE, not totally depraved. Our experiences in this world have a lot to do with how corrupt we do or do not become while we are here. For example, a child that is neglected and abused has a far higher chance of becoming very corrupt. One thing that Jesus prayed was that God would keep us from being "spotted" by the world (meaning the corrupt world system). Good parents also pray that their children will not become corrupted by the wickedness of the world system because the whole world lies in wickedness. This world is the place where people's souls are corrupted. But to say that we are born totally depraved is wrong. Even Jesus said "let the little children come to me and do not prevent them for of such is the Kingdom of heaven". It is a major bad thing to corrupt or offend a child. I think the doctrine of ET offends children. It did me - and because of it I suffered a lot as a child whose father died when I was age 6, being told that he might not be safe with God - that he might be stuck in a literal burning hell forever. That was a very BAD thing for me spiritually. And I nearly passed that stuff on to my own children, but for the grace of God.

Heartsong
Man is born spiritually dead. He is born without any relationship with God. And he is totally helpless to do anything about it. That is what totally depraved refers to. To be born spiritually dead as a result of having Adam's original sin imputed to the genetically formed Old sin nature.
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Old 06-26-2010, 01:57 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,489,596 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Man is born spiritually dead. He is born without any relationship with God. And he is totally helpless to do anything about it. That is what totally depraved refers to. To be born spiritually dead as a result of having Adam's original sin imputed to the genetically formed Old sin nature.
One word, Mike. Futility.
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Old 06-26-2010, 02:13 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,432,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Unlimited atonement refers to the fact that the work of Christ on the Cross on behalf of all mankind was efficacious. The word Atonement could actually be used in place of reconciliation. It includes in its meaning, satisfaction or reparation made for a wrong. It means to make amends, to reconcile.

Unlimited Atonement covers sins only. Jesus Christ was judged on the Cross for the sins of the entire human race. Not just for the sins of those who would believe. Rom 5:6; 2 Cor 5:14,15,19; 1 Tim 2:6; 4:10; Tit 2:11; Heb 2:9; 2 Pet 2:1; 1 John 2:2.

Limited Atonement is the false concept hat Christ died only for believers. Atonement is always applied to the work of Christ on the Cross on behalf of mankind. It is not applied to those who will be saved. Christ accomplished the work of Atonement for the entire human race.

Unlimited Atonement means that the unbeliever won't be indicted for sin at the Great White throne judgment. He will be instead be indicted on the basis of his works. Sin was already judged at the Cross, and human good was rejected at the Cross, but not judged. Therefore, human good becomes the basis for the unbelievers judgment.
Mike..you have it wrong. Limited Atonement is described as the work of Christ is only made effective in the believer's profession and salvation. It describes that the atonement, although universal, is only limited because of the amount of people who are saved is limited and not all.
The work is good for everyone. Read up some more on it. I have stated the case.
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