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Old 06-26-2010, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,759,838 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
If I had free will, I would not be watching my believing father-in-law die of lung cancer!

Would I? You mean limited will... right?
So sorry to read of his and your suffering. God bless you.

Heartsong
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Old 06-26-2010, 11:52 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,759,838 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
Some men have many words to speak that comes from Man's wisdom. They only repeats what 'agreeing' men have spoken and takes what they say as truth. They are incapable of thinking for themselves.

Mike lists a few scholarly quotes of his scholars as to impress us. "Tell me Mike, I listed many as well, does that mean I am right then?"

All can go to this thread and see how Mike 'conveniently' dodges all my questions. Simple questions like "Did you choose Christ?" and "Does everybody have the Holy Spirit?" Simple Yes or No answers he cannot supply. He dodges many verses posted before him. He also backs himself into a corner of TRUTH by his own words.

The Restoration of all Things; Acts 3:21.

Also, I have presented the below words to Mike MANY times, but he states that it is a waste of time to address them with me. He writes much MUCH words to defend his doctrine, but has no time for SCIPTURES (I want answers to them all Mike). To this date I and Mike have only talked about 2 scriptures out of the plethora listed below. Let us see if he will answer or have the 'time' to answer them now, being he started a thread on 'freewill'.
Amen! I got a blessing reading through all of this because it drives home the fact that God is completely sovereign over all of us and no one can stay his hand. Who can say to him - what are you doing? For God does all his pleasure. And it is his pleasure ultimately to bring all into his glorious salvation in the fullness of times. So for now, we endure suffering. But nothing given to Christ shall be lost. And all the former (bad) things shall pass away. And every tear shall be wiped away. And God shall be all in all.

That makes me very happy to think about.

Heartsong
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Old 06-27-2010, 12:38 AM
 
309 posts, read 303,918 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Amen! I got a blessing reading through all of this because it drives home the fact that God is completely sovereign over all of us and no one can stay his hand. Who can say to him - what are you doing? For God does all his pleasure. And it is his pleasure ultimately to bring all into his glorious salvation in the fullness of times. So for now, we endure suffering. But nothing given to Christ shall be lost. And all the former (bad) things shall pass away. And every tear shall be wiped away. And God shall be all in all.

That makes me very happy to think about.

Heartsong
Heartsong....Yes, God is Great ain't He. Left to ourselves, we would perish a 1000 times if given a 1000 lifetimes. I am so glad God is in control.

God Bless and be well
Joe
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Old 06-27-2010, 01:05 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,770,916 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Those who defend Universalism seem to have to deny man's free will to hold to their heretical doctrines.
Mike, I believe in the restoration of all things, but I also believe in free will. Universalism's core belief is that God can and will save all, but that doesn't mean we all think exactly alike on everything. UR is not a denominational doctrine that we adhere to. I know I disagree with some of my UR friends on free will, but I don't think they'll stop considering me their sister in Christ just because we don't agree on everything.

I'll give an analogy to explain my take on free will. Please excuse me if you think it's crude, but I think it explains it pretty well. Keep in mind it's in the middle of the night while I'm trying to explain.

The Analogy of the Diaper - By BHFT:
Let's look at the parent-child relationship. If all human beings have free will from the beginning, does that mean a baby makes an informed decision to (I'll be polite) soil his diaper? We can probably agree that he doesn't. Soiling his diaper is something he doesn't have a lot of control over at that point. As the baby gets a little older, the parent decides it's time for him to get potty-trained. The baby is used to the diaper and doesn't see any reason to change his habits, but a loving parent can see ahead into the future and knows it's best for him, so he gently instructs him to make changes.

There is resistant and defiance sometimes, sometimes the child potty trains quickly to get praise or rewards or to impress the older siblings, and sometimes children just want to please their parents and cooperate. People are different. If a child persists to not want to be potty-trained, there are consequences such as time-out, and sometimes the diaper might be taken away to force them not to use it. Does the child have free will to soil his diaper then? No, because the diaper isn't there. So, he has free will WITHIN certain limitations. As he begins to notice the advantages of the potty over the diaper, his will changes and his will is to use the bathroom instead of the diaper - all part of the parents' plan. The parent has been successful in molding the child's will, by interrupting his ability to completely exercise his own free will, and this is all done for the greater good of the child.
That being said to someone who already believes in free will, I will add that this has nothing to do with whether or not a parent would save him if his life were in danger (or the neighbor's child either - didn't want to hear that a non-believer is not His child), or whether or not a parent can be loving and still set someone on fire.

I don't understand why you think Universalists would need to believe there's no free will to believe in UR. I think it's because you can't grasp that what we are saying is simply that a Savior saves. We don't save ourselves by making a wise choice. I believe we have free will to sin or not, but not whether to burn forever vs. live in eternal bliss. There's not even a choice there because no one can reasonably make a choice to burn forever. When we choose sin with our own free will, we reap what we sow, as the bible teaches. No one can "sow" setting someone on fire forever, so they can't "reap" that.
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Old 06-27-2010, 10:22 AM
 
21,826 posts, read 16,682,806 times
Reputation: 8655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Mike, I believe in the restoration of all things, but I also believe in free will. Universalism's core belief is that God can and will save all, but that doesn't mean we all think exactly alike on everything. UR is not a denominational doctrine that we adhere to. I know I disagree with some of my UR friends on free will, but I don't think they'll stop considering me their sister in Christ just because we don't agree on everything.

I'll give an analogy to explain my take on free will. Please excuse me if you think it's crude, but I think it explains it pretty well. Keep in mind it's in the middle of the night while I'm trying to explain.

The Analogy of the Diaper - By BHFT:
Let's look at the parent-child relationship. If all human beings have free will from the beginning, does that mean a baby makes an informed decision to (I'll be polite) soil his diaper? We can probably agree that he doesn't. Soiling his diaper is something he doesn't have a lot of control over at that point. As the baby gets a little older, the parent decides it's time for him to get potty-trained. The baby is used to the diaper and doesn't see any reason to change his habits, but a loving parent can see ahead into the future and knows it's best for him, so he gently instructs him to make changes.

There is resistant and defiance sometimes, sometimes the child potty trains quickly to get praise or rewards or to impress the older siblings, and sometimes children just want to please their parents and cooperate. People are different. If a child persists to not want to be potty-trained, there are consequences such as time-out, and sometimes the diaper might be taken away to force them not to use it. Does the child have free will to soil his diaper then? No, because the diaper isn't there. So, he has free will WITHIN certain limitations. As he begins to notice the advantages of the potty over the diaper, his will changes and his will is to use the bathroom instead of the diaper - all part of the parents' plan. The parent has been successful in molding the child's will, by interrupting his ability to completely exercise his own free will, and this is all done for the greater good of the child.
That being said to someone who already believes in free will, I will add that this has nothing to do with whether or not a parent would save him if his life were in danger (or the neighbor's child either - didn't want to hear that a non-believer is not His child), or whether or not a parent can be loving and still set someone on fire.

I don't understand why you think Universalists would need to believe there's no free will to believe in UR. I think it's because you can't grasp that what we are saying is simply that a Savior saves. We don't save ourselves by making a wise choice. I believe we have free will to sin or not, but not whether to burn forever vs. live in eternal bliss. There's not even a choice there because no one can reasonably make a choice to burn forever. When we choose sin with our own free will, we reap what we sow, as the bible teaches. No one can "sow" setting someone on fire forever, so they can't "reap" that.
The restoration of all things spoken of in Acts 3:21 refers to the restoration of Irael during the Millennium, as shown in the original post of the following thread...

The Restoration of all Things; Acts 3:21.


I said that because most of the uni's on this forum deny man's free will. Free will is simply the ability to make a choice. Free will is the same as volition. .

vo·li·tion (v-lshn)
n.
1. The act or an instance of making a conscious choice or decision.
2. A conscious choice or decision.
3. The power or faculty of choosing; the will.

volitional - definition of volitional by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.



Man has the responsibilty to choose to believe in Christ or not to believe in Christ. To exercise his free will to reject Christ means that he must accept the alternative. The only alternatve is hades and finally, the lake of fire.

Jesus, the Savior, did the work on the Cross of providing reconciliation of man to God. That reconciliation is not applied to anyone until a choice, a free will choice, is made to recieve Christ as Savior. That is why Paul beseeched the Corinthians to be reconciled to God. 2 Cor. 5:20 'Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

The Savior made it possible to be saved. His work on the Cross does not mean that anyone is automatically saved. A conscious decision must be made to receive Jesus Christ as Savior. This is emphatically stated time and again in the Scriptures.

Faith in Christ is the means by which the one who believes receives the benefit of the work of Christ on the Cross. Those who believe in Christ Are wise. The fool rejects Christ.

WIth regard to your analogy, God is not the Father of the unbeliever. A person is adopted into the family of God through faith in Christ. Eph 1:5.


Universalisms core believe is a heresy. It is completely contrary to the Scriptures.
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Old 06-27-2010, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,669,238 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The restoration of all things spoken of in Acts 3:21 refers to the restoration of Irael during the Millennium, as shown in the original post of the following thread...

The Restoration of all Things; Acts 3:21.


I said that because most of the uni's on this forum deny man's free will. Free will is simply the ability to make a choice. Free will is the same as volition. .

vo·li·tion (v-lshn)
n.
1. The act or an instance of making a conscious choice or decision.
2. A conscious choice or decision.
3. The power or faculty of choosing; the will.

volitional - definition of volitional by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
free willn.1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

From your same source....

The philosophical "free will" is an illusion. Notice #2.... How can you have divine will influence free will and it still be free will. So you don't really mean free will at all... you mean volition.




Quote:
Man has the responsibilty to choose to believe in Christ or not to believe in Christ. To exercise his free will to reject Christ means that he must accept the alternative. The only alternatve is hades and finally, the lake of fire.

Jesus, the Savior, did the work on the Cross of providing reconciliation of man to God. That reconciliation is not applied to anyone until a choice, a free will choice, is made to recieve Christ as Savior. That is why Paul beseeched the Corinthians to be reconciled to God. 2 Cor. 5:20 'Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

The Savior made it possible to be saved. His work on the Cross does not mean that anyone is automatically saved. A conscious decision must be made to receive Jesus Christ as Savior. This is emphatically stated time and again in the Scriptures.

Faith in Christ is the means by which the one who believes receives the benefit of the work of Christ on the Cross. Those who believe in Christ Are wise. The fool rejects Christ.
You are sooooooo very close but so far away!
Quote:
WIth regard to your analogy, God is not the Father of the unbeliever. A person is adopted into the family of God through faith in Christ. Eph 1:5.


Universalisms core believe is a heresy. It is completely contrary to the Scriptures.
Adoption is NEVER initiated by the 'adoptee'.... Adoption is NEVER dependent on the person being adopted to CHOOSE to be adopted.

So I guess adopted isn't the right word here either? Or do you just like to change the meaning of words when you use them?
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Old 06-27-2010, 11:47 AM
 
21,826 posts, read 16,682,806 times
Reputation: 8655
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
free willn.1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

From your same source....

The philosophical "free will" is an illusion. Notice #2.... How can you have divine will influence free will and it still be free will. So you don't really mean free will at all... you mean volition.




You are sooooooo very close but so far away!
Forget philosophy!!! Satan uses philosophy to obscure the truth of God's revelation. To muddy up the waters and cause confusion.

To the contrary. The categories of God's will come under 1) God's directive will. 2) God's Overruling will, and 3) God's permissive will.

Man's free will falls under God's permissive will in which He allows man to make decisions that are contrary to His desires.

Now. And this goes for every last one of you reading this who deny the free will of man. Get your heads out of the sand, and research God's directive will, Overruling will, and permissive will. IF you will not do this,then REMAIN SILENT ABOUT THINGS OF WHICH YOU KNOW NOTHING!!! All passages which you people use to deny the free will of man fall under God's Directive will and Overruling will. Man's free will falls under God's permissive will.

Quote:
Adoption is NEVER initiated by the 'adoptee'.... Adoption is NEVER dependent on the person being adopted to CHOOSE to be adopted.

So I guess adopted isn't the right word here either? Or do you just like to change the meaning of words when you use them?
When a person makes the decision to believe in Christ for salvation, God the Holy Spirit places the one who has believed, into union with Christ. This is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:13.) As a result, the one who has believed shares the Sonship of Christ.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.

Gal 3:26 'For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.

In eternity past, God in His omniscience knew who would believe in Jesus Christ, and as a result, predestined him to adoption as a son. This was established in the divine decree.

NO ONE is born into the family of God apart from first believing in Christ for salvation.
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Old 06-27-2010, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,669,238 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Forget philosophy!!! Satan uses philosophy to obscure the truth of God's revelation. To muddy up the waters and cause confusion.

To the contrary. The categories of God's will come under 1) God's directive will. 2) God's Overruling will, and 3) God's permissive will.

Man's free will falls under God's permissive will in which He allows man to make decisions that are contrary to His desires.

Now. And this goes for every last one of you reading this who deny the free will of man. Get your heads out of the sand, and research God's directive will, Overruling will, and permissive will. IF you will not do this,then REMAIN SILENT ABOUT THINGS OF WHICH YOU KNOW NOTHING!!! All passages which you people use to deny the free will of man fall under God's Directive will and Overruling will. Man's free will falls under God's permissive will.
FREE WILL IS a philosophical notion. Free will doesn't exist outside philosophy. Then it is just plain will, most times left unfulfilled. I will myself to be rich... however that is dependent on my buns getting a high-paying job or winning the lottery, so it is not free. IF it were my choice I would ALWAYS choose the path of least resistance (the lottery) but you are saying that some (using free will) actively choose to burn eternally. That is not the philosophical definition of free will.... it doesn't even fit under volition AND is contrary to human nature.

So two things: Either the human in your mind is too stupid to see that burning is worse than not burning or there is no free will in afterlife selection.

Are you saying there are four kinds of will. Free will, Permissive will, and Overruling will, and directive will?

Do humans just have free will? Aren't permissive, overruling, and directives just ways of getting what you will? but then you say in the permissive will God permits that which he DOES NOT WILL... so how is that a will at all? Which did he will? The thing he didn't (the ultimate result) or the thing he did will but permitted to be overruled?

Quote:
When a person makes the decision to believe in Christ for salvation, God the Holy Spirit places the one who has believed, into union with Christ. This is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:13.) As a result, the one who has believed shares the Sonship of Christ.
I agree.


Quote:
In eternity past, God in His omniscience knew who would believe in Jesus Christ, and as a result, predestined him to adoption as a son. This was established in the divine decree.
YES I agree. Those he KNEW he predestined to be conformed to his son. GOD KNOWS EVERYONE! Not those who know HIM but those HE KNOWS.

Quote:
NO ONE is born into the family of God apart from first believing in Christ for salvation.
AGAIN ~ adoption is not being BORN INTO a family but chosen. The person being adopted HAS NO SAY in the actual process. The person being BORN has even LESS say in the matter.

IF what you say is true then adoption really means self-inclusion, and free-will really means volition.

You can change the meaning of words as you understand them but it is helpful to let people know so they can coherently discuss them with you.

It sounds as if you think people who cannot choose (which is why they need a savior) are choosing but the majority are choosing to be torment knowing full well they will be, even though they cannot spiritually understand because they are blind. But they still have the free will to choose to burn if they so choose... knowingly.... while not knowing.
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Old 06-27-2010, 12:34 PM
 
309 posts, read 303,918 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
free willn.1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

From your same source....

The philosophical "free will" is an illusion. Notice #2.... How can you have divine will influence free will and it still be free will. So you don't really mean free will at all... you mean volition.
This is so true. There is a HUGE difference between what is called the "human WILL" and the "human FREE will"


Quote:
You are sooooooo very close but so far away!
Yes he is....soooo very close.

Quote:
Adoption is NEVER initiated by the 'adoptee'.... Adoption is NEVER dependent on the person being adopted to CHOOSE to be adopted.

So I guess adopted isn't the right word here either? Or do you just like to change the meaning of words when you use them?
Great point
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Old 06-27-2010, 12:35 PM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 908,352 times
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Again, the type of adoption mentioned by Paul did NOT refer to taking someone else's child into your family and raising him as your own.

The adoption was what occurred AFTER the child was raised and trained by a member or servant of the father's household in how to handle his father's business and when the Father was fully satisfied that the son was finally ready to do business as the father would, he is ADOPTED as a SON, given the trust to do/run his father's business just as if he were the father.

If we are born again in Christ, and no one has any say in that, just as they had no say in whether to be born in Adam, what need is there for God to adopt us as children in the sense of being part of HIs family?

I read the above explanation years ago and do not recall where. But it makes perfect sense to me....He would only give responsible positions in His kingdom to those who have the wisdom and compassion to rule as he would himself.

Moses had to endure 40 years in the wilderness before God called him to lead the Israelites OUT of Egypt. Joseph had to spend time in slavery and prison BEFORE he was promoted to rule under Pharaoh himself, David had to endure persecution by Saul and flight for his life BEFORE he was lifted to his position as King, even though he had been anointed years before. Daniel suffered much, Job suffered much, no one comes into a position of authority without enduring chastening and suffering...THEN and only then does he receive the SONSHIP position. Naturally, all those mentioned, still were flawed human beings capable of mistakes and rebellion, BUT in HIS kingdom, when His firstfruits/elect are given positions in the miillenial era, there will be no failures or rebellion for it is the beginning of God being ALL in ALL.

Of course this is just how I see it. I know that most can not agree.

Have an excellent and joy filled Sunday.
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