U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-27-2010, 12:56 PM
 
309 posts, read 304,591 times
Reputation: 61

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
Moses had to endure 40 years in the wilderness before God called him to lead the Israelites OUT of Egypt. Joseph had to spend time in slavery and prison BEFORE he was promoted to rule under Pharaoh himself, David had to endure persecution by Saul and flight for his life BEFORE he was lifted to his position as King, even though he had been anointed years before. Daniel suffered much, Job suffered much, no one comes into a position of authority without enduring chastening and suffering...THEN and only then does he receive the SONSHIP position. Naturally, all those mentioned, still were flawed human beings capable of mistakes and rebellion, BUT in HIS kingdom, when His firstfruits/elect are given positions in the miillenial era, there will be no failures or rebellion for it is the beginning of God being ALL in ALL.
Great eye
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-27-2010, 12:57 PM
 
22,009 posts, read 16,770,811 times
Reputation: 8785
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
FREE WILL IS a philosophical notion. Free will doesn't exist outside philosophy. Then it is just plain will, most times left unfulfilled. I will myself to be rich... however that is dependent on my buns getting a high-paying job or winning the lottery, so it is not free. IF it were my choice I would ALWAYS choose the path of least resistance (the lottery) but you are saying that some (using free will) actively choose to burn eternally. That is not the philosophical definition of free will.... it doesn't even fit under volition AND is contrary to human nature.

So two things: Either the human in your mind is too stupid to see that burning is worse than not burning or there is no free will in afterlife selection.

Are you saying there are four kinds of will. Free will, Permissive will, and Overruling will, and directive will?

Do humans just have free will? Aren't permissive, overruling, and directives just ways of getting what you will? but then you say in the permissive will God permits that which he DOES NOT WILL... so how is that a will at all? Which did he will? The thing he didn't (the ultimate result) or the thing he did will but permitted to be overruled?

I agree.


YES I agree. Those he KNEW he predestined to be conformed to his son. GOD KNOWS EVERYONE! Not those who know HIM but those HE KNOWS.

AGAIN ~ adoption is not being BORN INTO a family but chosen. The person being adopted HAS NO SAY in the actual process. The person being BORN has even LESS say in the matter.

IF what you say is true then adoption really means self-inclusion, and free-will really means volition.

You can change the meaning of words as you understand them but it is helpful to let people know so they can coherently discuss them with you.
I have changed the meaning of nothing. I have given the correct meaning of free will. Those of you who deny the existance of free will have had your thinking muddled by human philosophy.

Quote:
It sounds as if you think people who cannot choose (which is why they need a savior) are choosing but the majority are choosing to be torment knowing full well they will be, even though they cannot spiritually understand because they are blind. But they still have the free will to choose to burn if they so choose... knowingly.... while not knowing.
All who hear the Gospel are enabled to understand the issue by way of God the Holy Spirit's common Grace ministry. Those who reject the Gospel do so because they will not believe. Not because they don't understand.

You must be born again. Those who are born again are adopted Roman style as Children of God. No one is adopted into the family of God unless He believes in Christ for salvation.

Free will has nothing to do with philosophy. Free will is nothing more than making a choice. Related to salvation, making a choice to receive Christ as Savior for salvation or to reject Him. Free will is not the ability to will something to happen by the power of your mind as if you were a genie or something. It is only the ability to make a choice between one thing and another thing. Keep Philosophy out of it.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

There is free will. The choice to believe and have eternal life, or not to believe and remain under the wrath of God and therefore not see life.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2010, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,689,480 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I have changed the meaning of nothing. I have given the correct meaning of free will. Those of you who deny the existance of free will have had your thinking muddled by human philosophy.



All who hear the Gospel are enabled to understand the issue by way of God the Holy Spirit's common Grace ministry. Those who reject the Gospel do so because they will not believe. Not because they don't understand.

You must be born again. Those who are born again are adopted Roman style as Children of God. No one is adopted into the family of God unless He believes in Christ for salvation.

Free will has nothing to do with philosophy. Free will is nothing more than making a choice. Related to salvation, making a choice to receive Christ as Savior for salvation or to reject Him. Free will is not the ability to will something to happen by the power of your mind as if you were a genie or something. It is only the ability to make a choice between one thing and another thing. Keep Philosophy out of it.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

There is free will. The choice to believe and have eternal life, or not to believe and remain under the wrath of God and therefore not see life.
So you are saying a very concise choice.... Believe and have eternal life (to know God and his son) or don't believe and not see life but the wrath of God. Where does it say anything about an afterlife?

YOUR PHILOSOPHY (critical study of the basic principles and concepts of a particular branch of knowledge, esp. with a view to improving or reconstituting them) is to make a connection between burning in hell and this wrath of God when this ALL is while LIVING....

The wrath of God is never for dead people....


Where in your philosophy (see definition above) is this afterlife mentioned as being equal to the wrath of God.


Show me one passage where the wrath of God comes on dead people.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2010, 01:42 PM
 
22,009 posts, read 16,770,811 times
Reputation: 8785
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
Again, the type of adoption mentioned by Paul did NOT refer to taking someone else's child into your family and raising him as your own.

The adoption was what occurred AFTER the child was raised and trained by a member or servant of the father's household in how to handle his father's business and when the Father was fully satisfied that the son was finally ready to do business as the father would, he is ADOPTED as a SON, given the trust to do/run his father's business just as if he were the father.

If we are born again in Christ, and no one has any say in that, just as they had no say in whether to be born in Adam, what need is there for God to adopt us as children in the sense of being part of HIs family?


I read the above explanation years ago and do not recall where. But it makes perfect sense to me....He would only give responsible positions in His kingdom to those who have the wisdom and compassion to rule as he would himself.

No one is born again unless they first believe in Christ for salvation.

Adoption in reference to the believer being adopted into the family of God is to be understood in terms of Roman style adoption (The Bible must be interpreted in the time in which it is written). Paul was a Jew, but he was also a Roman citizen. Much of what he wrote about had Roman concepts in mind. Adoption was one of them. Under Roman style adoption, someone could be adopted into the family and receive the inheritance even over the natural son.

The believer is adopted into the family of God as an adult son Positionaly. That is positional sanctification. But experiencially, he must still grow up spiritually. It is only those believers who grow up spiritually that will receive all the blessing and rewards that God wants to give them. Positionally however, every church-age believer is in union with Christ and shares His sonship, eternal life, perfect righteousness, destiny, heirship, and kingship.

However, only the believer who grows up spiritually will actually rule with Christ and receive the full benefits that belong to him by way of being in union with Christ.

Adoption is spoken of in the sense of already existing and in the future sense.

Rom 8:15 For you have not recieved the spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, ''Abba, Father!''.

Rom 8:23 (future) And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. (Reference to the resurrection of the body). The believer is adopted positionly, immediately at the point of salvation through faith in Christ. Ultimately, the believer will receive his resurrection body, and adoption in that sense will be a reality. Ultimate Sanctification.

Quote:
Moses had to endure 40 years in the wilderness before God called him to lead the Israelites OUT of Egypt. Joseph had to spend time in slavery and prison BEFORE he was promoted to rule under Pharaoh himself, David had to endure persecution by Saul and flight for his life BEFORE he was lifted to his position as King, even though he had been anointed years before. Daniel suffered much, Job suffered much, no one comes into a position of authority without enduring chastening and suffering...THEN and only then does he receive the SONSHIP position. Naturally, all those mentioned, still were flawed human beings capable of mistakes and rebellion, BUT in HIS kingdom, when His firstfruits/elect are given positions in the miillenial era, there will be no failures or rebellion for it is the beginning of God being ALL in ALL.

Of course this is just how I see it. I know that most can not agree.

Have an excellent and joy filled Sunday.
The church-age believer who rules with Christ in the Millennium will be in His resurrected body, and in the status of ultimate sanctification. He will have no old sin nature.

But in the Millennium, there will also still be mortal man who does have an old sin nature. And even though Jesus Christ is physically present on the earth, ruling from the throne of David, there will be many among mortal man who reject Him. It is those who reject Him that will be deceived by Satan when he is temporarily released from his imprisonment, and they will rebel against His rule (Revelation 20:7-10).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2010, 01:42 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,774,540 times
Reputation: 264
BHFT in red.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Savior made it possible to be saved. His work on the Cross does not mean that anyone is automatically saved.

A rope or a life ring also make it possible to be saved. A lifeguard actually saves without just offering a source of help.

Not only that, you don't realize what we are saved FROM. It's sin and death, not eternal torture. Those who are followers of Christ will be saved from the second death and reign with Him in the next age. Unbelievers won't. That's what you fail to understand.

A conscious decision must be made to receive Jesus Christ as Savior. This is emphatically stated time and again in the Scriptures.

Wrong. There's no scripture that says you have to "receive Jesus Christ as Savior." It declares Him the Savior of the World.

Faith in Christ is the means by which the one who believes receives the benefit of the work of Christ on the Cross. Those who believe in Christ Are wise. The fool rejects Christ.

Mike, it's obvious that you consider yourself wise, and the scriptures warn against this repeatedly. Also, you say that people have to "understand" all kinds of things to really be saved, and coincidentally, it's all the things you "understand." Did you "understand" all these things when you were 5 years old? You said that's when you got saved. If you didn't understand all the things back then that you say are required to be saved, maybe your salvation wasn't real, as you claim is true of many others because of their so-called lack of understanding.

WIth regard to your analogy, God is not the Father of the unbeliever. A person is adopted into the family of God through faith in Christ. Eph 1:5.

With regard to my analogy, you missed the point. I was talking about free will in human nature. A human being might be born with free will, but when they are first born they don't know enough to make a decision (can't decide whether or not to use a diaper), and cannot always exercise their own free will (the diaper being taken away). My point was about human nature and about God molding human beings by limiting their choices. This is true from the day someone is born into the world as a baby. That was the point.

The other point was that free will vs. not having free doesn't reflect whether or not it's in His nature to set someone on fire for eternity. I specifically added the analogy of "the neighbor's child" to avoid having to hear your weak argument, but you chose to use it anyway. If a man would never dare set his own child on fire, but wouldn't mind setting his neighbor's child on fire, he's no better person because of it. That was my point. Free will - No free will - Whatever - God still wouldn't set someone on fire for eternity for making a BAD CHOICE! This is true regardless of someone's twisted interpretation of Jesus' parables!

You reap what you sow. Can anyone "sow" setting someone on fire that cannot ever be put out and they can't die? Of course not!! So no one can reap that! Jesus died to pay our penalty for us. Right? He "took our place." Right? Is He now burning in a fire that can't be put out, and He can't die to relieve His pain? Of course not! Mike, do you have an answer for either of these points?

Universalisms core believe is a heresy. It is completely contrary to the Scriptures.

No. Thinking God is a torturer is a heresy and I apologize to God quite often for once believing that about Him.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2010, 02:16 PM
 
22,009 posts, read 16,770,811 times
Reputation: 8785
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So you are saying a very concise choice.... Believe and have eternal life (to know God and his son) or don't believe and not see life but the wrath of God. Where does it say anything about an afterlife?

YOUR PHILOSOPHY (critical study of the basic principles and concepts of a particular branch of knowledge, esp. with a view to improving or reconstituting them) is to make a connection between burning in hell and this wrath of God when this ALL is while LIVING....

The wrath of God is never for dead people....


Where in your philosophy (see definition above) is this afterlife mentioned as being equal to the wrath of God.


Show me one passage where the wrath of God comes on dead people.
The wrath of God is upon everyone who is physically born unto the world. Those who die physically without receiving Christ as Savior remain under the wrath of God as John 3:36 makes clear.

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Shall not see life, refers to the eternal life of God. Those who physically die without Christ will first be thrown into Hades (soul only), and at the end of the Millennium, they will be resurrected into bodies that will then be thrown into the lake of fire where they will spend eternity in conscious torment. Both body and soul, alive in the lake of fire, but spiritually dead-no relationship with God. Eternally separated from God. (Revelation 20:11-15)


All will be resurrected. Some to eternal life, others to eternal disgrace.

Dan 12:2 ''And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt .

Those who die without Christ will end up under eternal torment as is made clear in passages such as 2 Thess 1:9 and Revelaton 20:10 among others.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2010, 02:46 PM
 
22,009 posts, read 16,770,811 times
Reputation: 8785
With regard to post #55.
[quote=Bright Hope for Tomorrow;14798297]

[quote=Mike555;14795931]The restoration of all things spoken of in Acts 3:21 refers to the restoration of Irael during the Millennium, as shown in the original post of the following thread...

The Restoration of all Things; Acts 3:21.


I said that because most of the uni's on this forum deny man's free will. Free will is simply the ability to make a choice. Free will is the same as volition. .

vo·li·tion (v-lshn)
n.
1. The act or an instance of making a conscious choice or decision.
2. A conscious choice or decision.
3. The power or faculty of choosing; the will.

volitional - definition of volitional by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.



Man has the responsibilty to choose to believe in Christ or not to believe in Christ. To exercise his free will to reject Christ means that he must accept the alternative. The only alternatve is hades and finally, the lake of fire.

Jesus, the Savior, did the work on the Cross of providing reconciliation of man to God. That reconciliation is not applied to anyone until a choice, a free will choice, is made to recieve Christ as Savior. That is why Paul beseeched the Corinthians to be reconciled to God. 2 Cor. 5:20 'Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

The Savior made it possible to be saved. His work on the Cross does not mean that anyone is automatically saved. A conscious decision must be made to receive Jesus Christ as Savior. This is emphatically stated time and again in the Scriptures.

Faith in Christ is the means by which the one who believes receives the benefit of the work of Christ on the Cross. Those who believe in Christ Are wise. The fool rejects Christ.

WIth regard to your analogy, God is not the Father of the unbeliever. A person is adopted into the family of God through faith in Christ. Eph 1:5.


Universalisms core believe is a heresy. It is completely contrary to the Scriptures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
BHFT in red.

No. Thinking God is a torturer is a heresy and I apologize to God quite often for once believing that about Him.
That those who are in the lake of fire are tormented is made clear in the Scriptures.

Revelation 20:10 ''And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


Revelation 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Matthew 8:29 And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"

The demons know and understand the torment that awaits in the eternal fire for people who reject Christ, and for the fallen angels. How is it that so many people do not? And therefore will not heed the gracious warning that God gives, so that they may escape it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2010, 05:29 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,774,540 times
Reputation: 264
[quote=Mike555;14799150]With regard to post #55.
[quote=Bright Hope for Tomorrow;14798297]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The restoration of all things spoken of in Acts 3:21 refers to the restoration of Irael during the Millennium, as shown in the original post of the following thread...

The Restoration of all Things; Acts 3:21.


I said that because most of the uni's on this forum deny man's free will. Free will is simply the ability to make a choice. Free will is the same as volition. .

vo·li·tion (v-lshn)
n.
1. The act or an instance of making a conscious choice or decision.
2. A conscious choice or decision.
3. The power or faculty of choosing; the will.

volitional - definition of volitional by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.



Man has the responsibilty to choose to believe in Christ or not to believe in Christ. To exercise his free will to reject Christ means that he must accept the alternative. The only alternatve is hades and finally, the lake of fire.

Jesus, the Savior, did the work on the Cross of providing reconciliation of man to God. That reconciliation is not applied to anyone until a choice, a free will choice, is made to recieve Christ as Savior. That is why Paul beseeched the Corinthians to be reconciled to God. 2 Cor. 5:20 'Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

The Savior made it possible to be saved. His work on the Cross does not mean that anyone is automatically saved. A conscious decision must be made to receive Jesus Christ as Savior. This is emphatically stated time and again in the Scriptures.

Faith in Christ is the means by which the one who believes receives the benefit of the work of Christ on the Cross. Those who believe in Christ Are wise. The fool rejects Christ.

WIth regard to your analogy, God is not the Father of the unbeliever. A person is adopted into the family of God through faith in Christ. Eph 1:5.


Universalisms core believe is a heresy. It is completely contrary to the Scriptures.


That those who are in the lake of fire are tormented is made clear in the Scriptures.

Revelation 20:10 ''And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


Revelation 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Matthew 8:29 And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"

The demons know and understand the torment that awaits in the eternal fire for people who reject Christ, and for the fallen angels. How is it that so many people do not? And therefore will not heed the gracious warning that God gives, so that they may escape it.
I guess you're not going to attempt my questions about reaping what you sow and the fact that Jesus didn't burn in fire in our place.

Mike, the Rev. verses are symbolic, just like all of Revelation. If you're going to believe God torments people based on a verse that says someone who was demon-possessed accused him of that, then you're just foolish. I'll base my faith on God's character and not the accusation of a demon-possessed man.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2010, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,689,480 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The wrath of God is upon everyone who is physically born unto the world. Those who die physically without receiving Christ as Savior remain under the wrath of God as John 3:36 makes clear.

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Shall not see life, refers to the eternal life of God. Those who physically die without Christ will first be thrown into Hades (soul only), and at the end of the Millennium, they will be resurrected into bodies that will then be thrown into the lake of fire where they will spend eternity in conscious torment. Both body and soul, alive in the lake of fire, but spiritually dead-no relationship with God. Eternally separated from God. (Revelation 20:11-15)


All will be resurrected. Some to eternal life, others to eternal disgrace.

Dan 12:2 ''And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt .

Those who die without Christ will end up under eternal torment as is made clear in passages such as 2 Thess 1:9 and Revelaton 20:10 among others.
IF you are born under the wrath of God does that mean you are burning in fire until you are "saved?" How do you connect "wrath of God" or even everlasting contempt to burning in hell for eternity?

All the things are spoken of during the LIFE of the person not after they are dead.

You have yet to establish that there is a connection between wrath of God and burning in hell for ever. And you have failed to establish that any of these things occur after death.

Try harder Mike.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2010, 06:16 PM
 
22,009 posts, read 16,770,811 times
Reputation: 8785
[quote=Bright Hope for Tomorrow;14800993][quote=Mike555;14799150]With regard to post #55.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post

I guess you're not going to attempt my questions about reaping what you sow and the fact that Jesus didn't burn in fire in our place.

Mike, the Rev. verses are symbolic, just like all of Revelation. If you're going to believe God torments people based on a verse that says someone who was demon-possessed accused him of that, then you're just foolish. I'll base my faith on God's character and not the accusation of a demon-possessed man.
I didn't notice the questions. Because you posted within my post, all I noticed was your very last sentence about the torment. I have since gone back and saw them.

The place is real regardless of the language that is used to describe it. The results are real - Eternal separation from God, which means no relationshiop with God. The torment is real. The destruction - Apollumi - is real. Not cessation of existence, but eternal ruin and uselessness, in disgrace and in torment. Much of that torment will be the ever present memories of the chances that person had to receive Christ as Savior but he refused to do so. Much of the torment will be the eternal hopelessness of his irrevocable situation. The place is real. The descriptions used to describe it often include 'fire'. Fire is used for judgment. The fire is either real or it stands for something much worse, with fire being the strongest word to describe it.

All of Revelation is not symbolic. Much of it is. Not all of it. And the symbolism describes something that is real.

Matthew 25:41,46 calls it the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Jesus' spiritual death was different from the spiritual death of the unbeliever. His spiritual death lasted for 3 hours during which time He was being judged for the sins of the world. His was a substitionary spritual death of a sinnless man who bore the sins of the world in our place. Those who reject Christ will suffer an eternal spiritual death in the lake of fire.

Of course everyone reaps what they sow. If you die without believing in Christ, you reap eternal separation from God. Man can not pay the price for sin. Christ did pay the price. If Christ who paid the price, is rejected as Savior, then the one who rejected Christ can only try to earn his own salvation. Since Christ already paid the penalty for sin, the basis for the unbelievers condemnation becomes his own human good. Human righteousness is always rejected by God and as seen in Revelation 20:11-15, the unbelievers works are what condemns him.



Universalists are extremely foolish to ignore and twist the Scriptures. Not being able to face reality doesn't change reality. Indeed, you will reap what you sow.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top