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Old 06-26-2010, 08:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Read that? It did not say that God sent His Son in order to be fair. It did not say that He sent His Son in order to be just. It did not say that He sent His Son out of a moral obligation to mankind. It says that He sent His Son because HE WANTED TO. Why? BECAUSE HE LOVES US. That is the ONLY REASON why God made it possible for you to be reconciled with Him.

And that is also why we should not be so cowardly in proclaiming that there is only one Name by which men can be saved: Jesus Christ.

Instead of trying to accommodate the PRIDE of people who are offended in their arrogance as to why their religious traditions are not as valid as ours and why theirs cannot lead to salvation, and since there are so many good decent moral kind pious people in their traditions and cultures, we should be using this knowledge to inform such people, and everyone else, that God is not obligated to offer you salvation in your religion. God is not obligated to offer you salvation in your tradition. God is not obligated to offer everyone or even anyone in your culture a shot at salvation. God has no obligations to you at all. God is not in your debt, He is beholden to you in no way, shape, or form.

Therefore, God has every right to create ONE salvation plan, Jesus Christ, and give that salvation plan first to ONE PEOPLE, the Jews of Israel, and then for the most part sit back and let events play out … for first the Jew and then the Gentile to accept or reject the true gospel and choose or refuse to spread that gospel as they will, and then to reward or punish the creation of His own Hands accordingly at a time and in a manner of His own choosing. So Christians, whenever confronted with the lie – and it is a lie – by someone else or even within yourself regarding the fairness of Christian doctrine, strengthen yourself and oppose the lie.

Rom 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
The standard born again response,as expected from those who are afraid to question whether what they have been taught really makes sense.I did not expect any independent thought,and so not getting it,am not really surprised.

God does not owe it to be fair to those He created,like the Chinese,the peoples of the Americas,the aborigines.I guess that makes perfect sense to those conditioned not to think or question what they are instructed that they must believe or they will be heretics.
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Old 06-26-2010, 08:29 PM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,213,696 times
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I don't care who it is to, your the santa guy, do what suits you- I have no power here. The problem is always one of knowing-somebody, please tell me where they get the knowing that justifies your position, I am curious: mine is from a theological structure that has been in place and has been worked for years. For some of you we are not allowed to admit the bible; so where are we to do theology? If it comes from your brain alone, I am afraid its a fools theology, because your god is a fart, or vapor. I am irrational evidently because I use theology and work it from biblical data (we only know god if he reveals himself; I like the one in the bible, you can keep the one from your head, but if I said, what comes from my heart and will get my ol' reprobate grandma into heaven or my dead kitty, regardless of the doctrine, then I would be loved and proclaimed a genius). Is this the way you all want knowledge to go?
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Old 06-26-2010, 08:36 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,655 posts, read 30,298,482 times
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Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
On what basis do you think God didn't? He did it twice:
  1. He told Adam and Eve
  2. Everybody knew it after the flood
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
YES! I was going to quote that verse God has made a way for ALL people to have an inner sense of what He requires.
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Old 06-26-2010, 10:46 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,563,103 times
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Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
I don't care who it is to, your the santa guy, do what suits you- I have no power here. The problem is always one of knowing-somebody, please tell me where they get the knowing that justifies your position, I am curious: mine is from a theological structure that has been in place and has been worked for years. For some of you we are not allowed to admit the bible; so where are we to do theology? If it comes from your brain alone, I am afraid its a fools theology, because your god is a fart, or vapor. I am irrational evidently because I use theology and work it from biblical data (we only know god if he reveals himself; I like the one in the bible, you can keep the one from your head, but if I said, what comes from my heart and will get my ol' reprobate grandma into heaven or my dead kitty, regardless of the doctrine, then I would be loved and proclaimed a genius). Is this the way you all want knowledge to go?


If this made any sense I might be forced to respond to it.Since it doesn't....
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Old 06-26-2010, 10:50 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,563,103 times
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Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
YES! I was going to quote that verse God has made a way for ALL people to have an inner sense of what He requires.
Since you agree LOL!,care to try then and answer the same question left unanswered by the others?Why were there not proto-Christian religions in all the world already when European missionaries went out spreading the Gospel.Why didn't missionaries find these almost Christian religions everywhere?They should have been there if God gave people an inner sense of Christianity.So where were all these Christians without the name?

And since,according to those wishing to explain away the problem of most of the world not even being able to hear about Christ until the last couple of hundred years or so (out of 2000 years of Christianity),why the need to preach Christ then?If everyone has an inner sense already,then why is it necessary to evangelize?Would not God speaking directly to a person's soul be much more effective than someone like Ted Haggard,Benny Hinn,or Pat Robertson that represent God poorly?
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Old 06-27-2010, 07:53 AM
 
1,114 posts, read 1,028,425 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
So there you have it folks.God decides who is allowed to hear,and who will be allowed to believe.

The very sad thing is that this actually makes sense to those who have willingly given up the power of reason and independent thought.

“Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive. Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and return and be healed” (Isa. 6:9-10; cf. Mk. 4:12, Lk. 8:10). “Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil.... He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God” (Jn. 8:43-44, 47). The preaching of the gospel is useless to the deaf. The written word is of no effect to the blind. Only God can open blind eyes and deaf ears. “The hearing ear and the seeing eye, the LORD has made them both” (Pr. 20:12).

“Because to you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them, it has not been givenTherefore, I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, ‘Hearing you will hear and not understand and seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, and I should heal them’.” (Matt 13: 10 - 15)


“And He said, ‘To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest I speak in parables, that ‘Seeing they may not see and hearing they may not understand.’” (Luke 8: 9 -10).

"But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, so that Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn And their sins be forgiven them.’” (Mark 4: 10 - 12

‘He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn so that I would heal them.’” (Jn 12: 37- 40).

Jn 64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.



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Old 06-27-2010, 08:16 AM
 
1,114 posts, read 1,028,425 times
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Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
Who needs to bother with a point by point rebuttal of your beliefs,when exposing the fact that God has supposedly predetermined who is allowed to believe,and who is doomed to disbelieve,is all that is necessary?I don't need to do a point by point dissection of the Santa Claus story to show it's silliness either.I can simply point to flying reindeer and dispense with all the rest of the points.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life
Jesus died for the "believers". And who exactly are the believers? Those whom god has chosen to grant belief/understanding to.

Acts 13:48 As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life, believed.

Galatians 3:22 But the Scriptures imprisoned all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Philippians 1:29 Because it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer on his behalf

John 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
God grants belief to whoever he wants based on his own purposes and mercy. The above verse shows that for those who do not believe, it is because (due to the fact that) we are not of god's sheep. It doesn't say that we are not of god's sheep because we do not believe. Quite the opposite.

Romans 9:11 For being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him who calls,

Rom. 8:30, "and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Hebrews 9:15 (New International Version)
15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.


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Old 06-27-2010, 08:57 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,445,219 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
The standard born again response,as expected from those who are afraid to question whether what they have been taught really makes sense.I did not expect any independent thought,and so not getting it,am not really surprised.
God created the Chinese?

He created Adam and Eve.....and the Chinese are descendants and inheritors of Adam's sin. You can believe whatever you want dear unbeliever, but in the end, we will see who is right about this.

If you are right, so be it, I lived a good life and was kind to people, yet sin daily, and plead for forgiveness, but for the most part, I think I am alright....at least that is what my family and friends say. But if you are wrong, and I am right, well, is that a chance you really want to take?
Put down your pride and arrogance, and dwell on what you really know about the afterlife, and are you satisfied with what the world has told you, apart from the faith of Christians?
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Old 06-27-2010, 09:04 AM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,563,103 times
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
God created the Chinese?

He created Adam and Eve.....and the Chinese are descendants and inheritors of Adam's sin. You can believe whatever you want dear unbeliever, but in the end, we will see who is right about this.

If you are right, so be it, I lived a good life and was kind to people, yet sin daily, and plead for forgiveness, but for the most part, I think I am alright....at least that is what my family and friends say. But if you are wrong, and I am right, well, is that a chance you really want to take?
Put down your pride and arrogance, and dwell on what you really know about the afterlife, and are you satisfied with what the world has told you, apart from the faith of Christians?
Just out of curiousity,why do you call me an unbeliever?
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Old 06-27-2010, 09:41 AM
 
1,114 posts, read 1,028,425 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
God created the Chinese?

He created Adam and Eve.....and the Chinese are descendants and inheritors of Adam's sin. You can believe whatever you want dear unbeliever, but in the end, we will see who is right about this.

If you are right, so be it, I lived a good life and was kind to people, yet sin daily, and plead for forgiveness, but for the most part, I think I am alright....at least that is what my family and friends say. But if you are wrong, and I am right, well, is that a chance you really want to take?
Put down your pride and arrogance, and dwell on what you really know about the afterlife, and are you satisfied with what the world has told you, apart from the faith of Christians?
Why do you assume that those are the only 2 possibilities......that either YOUR god exists, or he doesn't?

What if the "one true god" is not the christian god? What if he gives second chances to those who did not worship any gods, but eternally punishes those who praised and worshiped other gods?

Likewise, what if muslims and jews are correct in their assessment that christians are committing idolatry by holding a man (jesus) as co-equal with the one true god, Yahweh? Yahweh is a jealous god who does not take idolatry lightly. It appears that you are taking just as much of a risk (or more) in your beliefs.
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