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Old 06-27-2010, 10:12 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,771,625 times
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People who believe God refuses to save all He created, use the verse in Romans 1 quite often, and miss the entire point of the passage!

This passage isn't even talking about unbelievers! It is talking about what people who already KNOW God should know ABOUT God - what they believe about His nature! (See verse 21.) Believers claimed to be wise and become fools because they didn't believe in God's divine nature!

Stop long enough to look at what this verse says about what may be known about God:

It is plain.
God has made it plain.
His eternal power and divine nature have been CLEARLY seen.
His nature is understood from what has been made (creation).

Now, if someone can give me ONE example in creation that is CLEARLY SEEN that involves someone, or even an animal, being tortured by fire that won't go out because they didn't make a wise decision, maybe I'll reconsider and go back to my old belief of ET.

Romans 1:

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
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Old 06-27-2010, 11:25 AM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,211,524 times
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Let me see...., so a question about the source of one's information; its basis, what one is basing one's thought structures on, makes no sense.....wow, and I am declared without reason or independent thought. Evidently there is no method here at all.
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Old 06-27-2010, 11:38 AM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,558,657 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
Let me see...., so a question about the source of one's information; its basis, what one is basing one's thought structures on, makes no sense.....wow, and I am declared without reason or independent thought. Evidently there is no method here at all.
The source of my belief is the person of Christ and His reason for coming.I am basing my thought structure on the belief that God is compassionate and did not mistakenly design a universe in which He is forced,against His will,to send most of the people who ever walk the earth to flames of eternal torment.You seem to believe that He has done just that,either mistakenly or even willingly.And so we differ.

Last edited by lifertexan; 06-27-2010 at 11:57 AM..
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Old 06-27-2010, 12:10 PM
 
Location: New England
32,233 posts, read 21,115,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
The source of my belief is the person of Christ and His reason for coming.I am basing my thought structure on the belief that God is compassionate and did not mistakenly design a universe in which He is forced,against His will,to send most of the people who ever walk the earth to flames of eternal torment.You seem to believe that He has done just that,either mistakenly or even willingly.And so we differ.
Amen my friend

but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles.1 Corinthians 1 verse 23

To the orthodox christian a God that is Savior to All , how dare He be ? .
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Old 06-27-2010, 12:13 PM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,211,524 times
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You believe in christ, so what; doesn't also the devil? Where do you get this information on christ? On god? Your beliefs are irrelevant here, who cares what you believe, it is what you are hawking that counts, the ideas you are attempting to disseminate and defend. Do you use bible and then add your own wish list, what you like in the bible only, or whatever? You accused me of lacking independent thought; am I to assume independent thought is just thinking up a christ you like? You accuse me of lacking reason; since reason moves from a start, then am I to assume that this stuff you think up independently, and with reason move from, well, the conclusion will be what you started with, and if it is what you thought up, that is a nothing, theologically. If god decided to send some to a hell (and of course there is biblical evidence for this) or whatever, then you would be forcing him to be otherwise, against his will. How do you draw the distinction, in a reasonable way?
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Old 06-27-2010, 12:28 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,558,657 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim View Post
You believe in christ, so what; doesn't also the devil? Where do you get this information on christ? On god? Your beliefs are irrelevant here, who cares what you believe, it is what you are hawking that counts, the ideas you are attempting to disseminate and defend. Do you use bible and then add your own wish list, what you like in the bible only, or whatever? You accused me of lacking independent thought; am I to assume independent thought is just thinking up a christ you like? You accuse me of lacking reason; since reason moves from a start, then am I to assume that this stuff you think up independently, and with reason move from, well, the conclusion will be what you started with, and if it is what you thought up, that is a nothing, theologically. If god decided to send some to a hell (and of course there is biblical evidence for this) or whatever, then you would be forcing him to be otherwise, against his will. How do you draw the distinction, in a reasonable way?
You,as usual,make little sense but just ramble almost incoherently.You asked what I believed.The you say who cares what I believe.This is a perfect example of your lack of logic.

Like I said,I believe in a compassionate God who did not make any mistakes when creating the universe.Now let's hear what you believe.How did the situation end up where most of the people who ever lived will go to an eternity of terrible torment,and where God had to give up and let His own Son be tortured?Did God not desire this,and so somehow a mistake happened that He did not forsee and things spiraled out of His control?Or did God know this would happen if He created us,and decided that this result was OK with Him?
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Old 06-27-2010, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,435,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
Just out of curiousity,why do you call me an unbeliever?
Because you are rejecting the gospels.
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Old 06-27-2010, 01:16 PM
 
Location: New England
32,233 posts, read 21,115,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Because you are rejecting the gospels.
What if he believes in Jesus ?, does this count for nothing . Do we have to be scriptually and doctrinally sound according to the gospel of orthodox christianity "of "you must believe and some gospel" before we become a believer ?.
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Old 06-27-2010, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 908,815 times
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I once saw a fascinating interpretation of what this saying by Jesus meant. I can't remember where, or how accurate it is, but it seems very valid to me.

According to the explanation, most cities were surrounded by walls and the majority of people entered in at the gates, where the rich and 'important' people were honored, much attention was given to them there, by the most important men in the city...recall the story of Ruth where Boaz had to go to the gates to ask permission of Ruth's nearer kinsman to redeem her property and marry her?

Anyway, this explanation offered that there was a very inconspicuous place where the poor people entered into the city to forego the delay at the gates, etc. This was a fairly small cleft in the wall and in order to pass through into the city, the individual had to kneel down and crawl through. Thus, the rich and self important residents/visitors, would have to abase themselves and get dirty, etc, in order to enter that way and certainly they couldn't take in all their apparent wealth which the camel carried. The story also went that this opening was called The Eye of the Needle.

I don't know whether it's true or not, but it puts an entirely different spin on the story for me. We must leave all our so called good works and accomplishments outside the entrance into His kingdom.
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Old 06-27-2010, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,435,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mythunderstood View Post
Why do you assume that those are the only 2 possibilities......that either YOUR god exists, or he doesn't?

What if the "one true god" is not the christian god? What if he gives second chances to those who did not worship any gods, but eternally punishes those who praised and worshiped other gods?

Likewise, what if muslims and jews are correct in their assessment that christians are committing idolatry by holding a man (jesus) as co-equal with the one true god, Yahweh? Yahweh is a jealous god who does not take idolatry lightly. It appears that you are taking just as much of a risk (or more) in your beliefs.
Because my God fulfilled everything to a T
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