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Old 06-26-2010, 09:09 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
What was the works of the devil ? to hold men in fear of death , because he the devil had the power over death.

14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.Hebrews 2 verses 14 and 15
That was and is the power that the devil had/has over men - the fear of death. And those who use the fear of death as a means to control others are following in the devil's footsteps (IMO).
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Old 06-26-2010, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
God wanted Adam and Eve to learn to distinguish between good and evil. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil bore fruit that would enable them to have an understanding that all things have their opposite -- good and evil, pleasure and pain, sickness and health, light and darkness, etc. It was only by being presented with choices that they would be able to learn and grow.
Yes, I agree. In order for God to make sentient beings who could appreciate the glory of his virtues of love, grace, mercy, peace, etc.... they had to be subjected to suffering. This is clearly laid out in the book of Romans. To think that God created men in order to "get even" with the Devil in a cosmic angelic battle is unconscionable. That scenario makes God out to be an angry, egotistical deity with a permanent chip on his shoulder (like a fallen man) - and I'm not buying it.
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Old 06-26-2010, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Yes, I agree. In order for God to make sentient beings who could appreciate the glory of his virtues of love, grace, mercy, peace, etc.... they had to be subjected to suffering. This is clearly laid out in the book of Romans. To think that God created men in order to "get even" with the Devil in a cosmic angelic battle is unconscionable. That scenario makes God out to be an angry, egotistical deity with a permanent chip on his shoulder (like a fallen man) - and I'm not buying it.

Me neither. I do believe in the angelic, but I believe the Bible spells it out pretty clearly what kind of "battle" is going on between God and them. I also believe God made humans because of their rebellion, so that in the end His wisdom will be made manifest to all of his creatures. I also happen to believe that all will be reconciled in the heavens and the earth and that no temporal suffering we go through here can compare to our future world where we will shed these decaying bodies, exit this chaotic world, and enter the truth.

The last shall be first.
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Old 06-26-2010, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Originally Posted by shunammite View Post
The whole of scripture is an allegory - Ps 78:2, "dark sayings", Matt 13, "without a parable spake he not unto them".
Until one gets that, the bible remains a crazy book for the most part.
Welcome, newbie Shunammite
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Old 06-27-2010, 01:14 AM
 
61 posts, read 67,687 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
God wanted Adam and Eve to learn to distinguish between good and evil. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil bore fruit that would enable them to have an understanding that all things have their opposite -- good and evil, pleasure and pain, sickness and health, light and darkness, etc. It was only by being presented with choices that they would be able to learn and grow.
If he WANTED them to learn to distinguish between good and evil, and the only way to learn that is to eat from this tree, why did he tell them not to eat from it??

Why didn't he say, "Eat this fruit so you will be able to distinguisd good and evil"? Why do they have to eat some magic fruit to learn this? It makes no sense....

Last edited by ACEsydney; 06-27-2010 at 01:47 AM..
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Old 06-27-2010, 01:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
As Mike has said, the entire plan was to destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
You don't really think that all-powerful, all-knowing god is using us (and created the entire universe) just so he could settle a spat with Satan do you?

Seems like he could come-up with something a little more simple and effective.
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Old 06-27-2010, 01:46 AM
 
61 posts, read 67,687 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Yes, I agree. In order for God to make sentient beings who could appreciate the glory of his virtues of love, grace, mercy, peace, etc.... they had to be subjected to suffering. This is clearly laid out in the book of Romans. To think that God created men in order to "get even" with the Devil in a cosmic angelic battle is unconscionable. That scenario makes God out to be an angry, egotistical deity with a permanent chip on his shoulder (like a fallen man) - and I'm not buying it.
"An angry, egotistical deity with a permanent chip on his shoulder"?

Hmmm... Let's examine our bibles for a minute shall we?

Is this the same god who killed every living thing on the earth because he thought humans had become too evil?

Doesn't sound angry to me...

Job 9:22
"He destroys both the blameless and the wicked."

Very just...

Exodus 12:29
"At midnight the lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon."

Let's see here, god killed all the Egyptian's innocent children because Pharaoh disobeyed him?
Yeah, no chip on his shoulder...

Deuteronomy 13:6-11
"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again."

Worship any other god and I will force your own family to stone you to death!
That doesn't sound egotistical to me...
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Old 06-27-2010, 01:47 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,722,033 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACEsydney View Post
Please speak plainly because I am somewhat of a literalist.
Then there may be communication problems about this because it's all metaphors and spiritual concepts.
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Old 06-27-2010, 04:40 AM
 
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The Garden of Eden is reverse than the earth today, see in the Garden most of all the trees in the garden were the trees of life , and these trees were the Essence of the Lord and If you eat from these tree you eat from the purpose and Spiritual Essence for the image of God.... and then there was one tree of good and knowledge where the serpant was there in the garden,... which repesents the darkness of the devil and his purpose to confuse the things and ways of the Lord , which had confuse the devil and demons and fallen angels,...... and this tree of good and knowledge is proof that the devil had already fallen before the fall of Adam...... and the devil as lucifer had ruled in the earth and God was planning to upsurp or uproot the devil, and build a family of God and put Gods family in the place of the devil assumed authority or rule, and the devil hated this plan, of family of God....God put this tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden as a token gesture that Adam would reject this tree and that would give the Lord the will of man to railroad right over the devil plan and purpose with all the power the Lord has, and end his rule in the earth ...... But this falled and the Lord had to wait until Jesus came and take back what was lost by Adams disobedience and Jesus won the honor and now has that power and authority over the Heavens and the earth and the war with the devil is won, now only battles where the Lord God will sweep up operation to the devil is there to the will of man
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Old 06-27-2010, 05:52 AM
 
12 posts, read 12,530 times
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Default To ACE

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACEsydney View Post
I'm not sure what you're saying here, help me out. Please speak plainly because I am somewhat of a literalist.

I sounds like you're saying that God put it there because it is actually the "tree of life" and it is necessary to eat from it in order to survive?

If that is the case, why would he tell them not to eat from it?
Dear ACE: Thanks for responding directly back to me. I admit to being confusing. And, I suspected you started this thread as a sort of "attack" on the validity of scripture - if you remain bonded to "literal" it is VERY EASY to wipe it out, in a heartbeat. In a literal sense, it's nonsense. I was very active for many years in a very fundamental church, "if the literal sense makes good sense I seek no other" - my pastor's motto - well, what that meant was, they pretty much IGNORED large portions - as he said once, "well if we are going to credit that verse, we'd have to throw the entire bible out" - and they didn't want to do that - and now, I don't blame them - but at one time I was very angry about that deliberate blindness.

Short Answer - because the rest is very long - I say the Tree of Knowledge and the injunction not to touch it - are both there to make people develop into their full potential. Man is not born to obey, he chafes at limits, if you ever had a two year old - or tried to hold a squirming 8 month old, you know what I mean. It's wrestling with your limitations that makes Muscles Grow.

I am still a literalist myself, at times. A material girl in a material world - sometimes, for practical guidance, I may ask "what does god's word say" - but at this point, I don't have to ask - I know inside, just as everyone else does, what is "right" - right is as close a balance as you can achieve between your own need, and that of the other parties involved.

Someone mentioned one of my favorite verses, about the devil having the power of death, Heb 2:14-15 - but God has the power of death, "I kill and I make alive and there is none beside me", Deut 32:39. If we were in math class, in that case, "god = devil". I mentioned that both are trying to kill us - I got quite fascinated a while back, looking at the original language of bible words, you don't have to be a scholar in this day of online lexicons - "devil" in the NT (KJV) means either "distributes fortunes" (and that word is also sometimes translated "god") or "throws mud at you". In Heb 2, he's the mudslinger. The one who makes you ashamed, which is a deadly feeling to be sure. But God also invokes shame. So does your mom and dad, if you were bad, as a little kid, "now aren't you ashamed of yourself!"

I am not ashamed anymore. A quote from Now Voyager, as she says wonderingly, "I am not afraid". That's the difference. When you are afraid there are scary things everywhere. When you have made peace with the inevitable, nothing is scary, it's just interesting.

I think the bible has been used as justification for terrible cruelty - by very sincere people, too. But we have been dealt a kind of "mission impossible", coming into this world. And everyone just does the best they can. It's not so hard, one on one, to work out righteousness - face to face. (As in water face answers to face, so the heart of man to man, Prov 27:19 another fave verse.) BUT, human beings are too weak to survive individually - we MUST act corporately, to live - "it is not good that the man should be alone" - moral man, immoral society - to hold people together in cohesive groups, and to control and/or direct their behavior, for the good of the whole, leadership has to resort to some pretty nasty stuff. He raises up the basest of men to rule over us, another fave verse of mine, Dan 4:17 - really nice people don't seek to lord it over their fellows - but sometimes the problems are so oppressive, some pretty nice people do take that route - I love Abe Lincoln, for example. But his enemies really hated his guts.

Another line I like, Juliet to Romeo when he asks "but wilt thou leave me so unsatisfied", she answers "why, what satisfaction canst thou have tonight?" I have to believe this inspired the Stones, "Satisfaction" - if we were ever satisfied, we'd quit growing - the idea is for the great Investor to obtain the Maximum Return on his Investment - My Word which has gone Out of my Mouth will not Return unto me Void - no it won't - Bringin it all back home, Dylan -

So - the first Genesis story, it can be viewed as a "creation myth", an explanation for where everything came from - it doesn't explain much really - except "god did it". How that differs from "big bang" is not clear to me. But in my life, I view the Genesis story - and everything else in scripture - as a kind of parable, to help me understand myself - and have hope, to carry on, in spite of all the pain and disappointments in life. To me, the Garden of Eden is like when we are little children, someone else takes care of everything, we just play all day. But we were not made to remain children - "in malice be ye children, in understanding be men" - and in "real life", a kid's pituitary gland goes off and suddenly mom and dad don't know it all - and his sexual desire and pride arise - his "eve" - feeling I think of her - male is reason, female is feeling/emotion - that is what leads us to eat of that tree of knowledge - and then you can't be a kid anymore - just as Peter Pan would never be able to go back to neverland, if he ever left. And I could never go back to fundamentalism, but I don't hate people in it anymore. I even think they are wiser than me, to not go so near the edge, asking those ultimate questions. But if they had the same stuff pushing them I had, I expect they would do the same.

I rather think we are all the same person - but it's the different circumstances and peculiar talents given to each of us individually, that make us seem different - "he fashions all the hearts of men alike" Ps 33:14-15. To me, Mankind is the Son of God - the Christ - it means "anointed" - here for a purpose and empowered to fulfill that purpose.

Is there a limit on how long these posts can be?? (Yes I know there is, usually people won't read past a paragraph or two, see I can see their hearts in my own!) But I'm on a roll and I'm gonna get it all out.

I wanted this thread to stay in the more neutral forum. I wanted to pronounce a plague on both their houses, the religionists and the antireligionists. But it's pretty hard to avoid both camps - your head sort of explodes. I think of it as being and nothingness - the Religious dare to embrace Being - genuine existence, as opposed to here today gone tomorrow (but the scripture does say all flesh is grass). But that creates a heavy burden, that there is Meaning out there, if you fail to grasp it, it's "epic fail".

The Antireligious - we live lives of quiet desperation, born in another's pain, die in our own - since men come and go, they don't matter - the earth remains, save the planet. mmmmk.

Someone very important to me died - and the universe disappeared - one human being you love is worth more than everything. You can find this out without reading the bible - the human brain - the distance between all the synapses, if laid end to end, would stretch from here to Jupiter. The number of connections in a human mind, greater than the number of stars in the universe (no one knows either number of course, my source, PBS Secret Life of the Brain). A wonderful Emily Dickenson poem, the brain is wider than the sky, so true.

But while we are here, we are limited by physical limits. I'm not against saving the planet, lol, except it's a pretty tall order. I do what I can, conservation-wise. My highest priority is saving my own sanity though.

I don't know what happens after this life is over - I'll probably find out before too long, getting old. But I've learned to trust others for what is beyond my control. This world is full of problems, it's also full of people overcoming problems. Do the best you can and then rest.

Another line I love, "pilot of the storm that leaves no trace, like thoughts inside a dream" - Kashmir, Led Zeppelin (I ADORE Led Zeppelin but can't talk to anyone about them, other fans get VERY MAD if you suggest they are "spiritual" lol) - I call that Pilot Christ in You the Hope of Glory, Col 1:27.

I can see into your heart - and I know you were trying to say that it's pretty dumb for a loving creator to put something terribly dangerous within reach of his young ones and pointedly draw their attention to it, leave them unguarded, and then complain when they "fall". As if a parent would leave a sharp two edged sword laying around and go off and leave his two two year olds alone with it. Literally that is very stupid. But figuratively, it just tells it like it is. If death were the bugaboo it feels that it is, I'd be hopeless. I feel that it is just a necessary evil, "we must needs die", II Sam 14:14, but death finishes the work and makes us perfect.

Sorry to run on so long, I thought I could say it all but I can't - I think the wisest people keep this stuff "subliminal" - they may go to church, they may not - but everyone is aware of the ultimate questions - wise people "walk by faith", they don't demand so many specific answers, if you insist on something specific, you'll wind up with something faulty, that sets you at odds with your fellows - and yet, those people get things done, that the Whole needs - I always think of Linus with his Blanket (Great Pumpkin ideology), he could beat that Bully when ol' wishy washy was powerless.

One more thing that speaks to me powerfully - and I only thought of it this morning - the good shepherd parable, John 10, first consider, "if you continue in my word you will know the truth and the truth will set you free", that's John 8:31-32 - well in John 10 the sheep are all locked up safely in the sheepfold, the gatekeeper will open the door when the good shepherd shows up - others come after the sheep but they don't come in the right way, they are thieves and robbers, the good shepherd comes in the door, it opens willingly, the sheep hear him, they know each other, and the go out and follow him - I always thought well that's like being released from bondage - but no - because, afterwards THEY GO IN AND OUT - and find "pasture" - eating is doing in NT symbolism - "my meat is to do the will of my father" - and so - I can go in and out of literalism - makes it pretty hard to talk about this stuff to another person - probably not allowed - can only be done via "art" - in the Matrix films, Neo, in the heat of battle - he takes a brief trip UP - and is renewed, then descends back into the fray - and dies - but not before he accomplishes what he was born for.

Thanks for speaking and letting me speak, it helps me. Like everyone else, I carry a heavy burden. Gonna lay down my burden down by the riverside - if I can ever get to the river. God bless us every one/everyone, Tiny Tim.
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