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The act of murder is rampant in the Bible, so for Muslims and the rest
I love God but how do I get around all that he murders, I truly don't want to have anything to do with a murdering God and using logic for me doesn't answer it ether.
thanks
In much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, there are laws that command that people be killed for absurd reasons such as working on the Sabbath, being gay, cursing your parents, or not being a virgin on your wedding night.
There are also countless examples of mass murders commanded by God, including the murder of women, infants, and children.
God drowns everyone on earth (except Noah and his family) Genesis 7:23, BT 30,000,000? 30,000,000 God rains fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah, killing everyone. Gen.19:24, BT 1000? 30,001,000 Lot's wife for looking back Gen.19:26, BT 1 30,001,001 Er who was "wicked in the sight of the Lord" Gen.38:7, 1 Chr.2:3, BT 1 30,001,002 Onan for spilling his seed Gen.38:10, BT 1 30,001,003 7th Egyptian Plague: Hail Exodus 9:25, BT 30,000? 30,031,003 God kills every Egyptian firstborn child. Ex.12:29-30, BT 500,000? 30,531,003 God drowns Egyptian army Ex.14:28, BT 1000? 30,532,003 God and Moses help Joshua kill the Amalekites Ex.17:13, BT 1000? 30,533,003 For dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf Ex.32:27-28, 35, BT 3000 30,536,003 Aaron's sons for offering strange fire before the Lord Lev.10:1-3, Num.3:4, 26:61, BT 2 30,536,005 A blasphemer Lev.24:10-23, BT 1 30,536,006 God burned to death an unknown number for complaining Numbers 11:1, BT 100? 30,536,106 God sent "a very great plague" for complaining about the food. Num.11:33, BT 10,000? 30,546,106 God killed those who murmured with a plague. Num.14:35-36, BT 100? 30,546,206 A man who picked up sticks on the SabbathNum.15:32-36, BT 1 30,546,207 Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families) Num.16:27, BT 12+ 30,546,219 Burned to death for offering incense Num.16:35, 26:10, BT 250 30,546,469 For complaining Num.16:49, BT 14,700 30,561,169 Massacre of the Aradites Num.21:1-3, BT 3000? 30,564,169 For complaining about the lack of food and water, God sent fiery serpents to bite the people, and many of them died. Num.21:6, BT 100? 30,564,269 God delivers the Bashanites into Moses' hands and Moses kills everyone "until there was none left alive." Num.21:34-35, BT 1000? 30,565,269 For "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab" Num.25:9, BT 24,000 30,589,269 Midianite massacre (32,000 virgins were kept alive) Num.31:1-35, BT 90,000+ 30,679,269 The slaughter of the Anakim, the childen of Esau, and the Horim Deuteronomy 2:21-22 5000? 30,684,269 God hardened the king of Heshbon's heart so that the Israelites could massacre his people. (included several cities) Dt.2:33-34, BT 3000? 30,687,269 God delievered the king of Bashan so that the Israelites could massacre his people. Dt.3:3-6 60,000? 30,747,269 Massacre of Jericho Joshua 6:21, BT 1000? 30,748,269 God tells Joshua to stone to death Achan (and his family) for taking the accursed thing. Joshua 7:10-12, 24-26, BT 5+ 30,748,274 God tells Joshua to attack Ai and do what he did to Jericho (kill everyone). Joshua 8:1-25, BT 12,000 30,760,274 God slaughters the Amorites and even chases them "along the way" as they try to escape. Joshua 10:10-11, BT 1000? 30,761,274 Joshua kills 5 kings and hangs their dead bodies on trees Joshua 10:24-26, BT 5 30,761,279 Massacre of 7 cities Joshua 10:28-42, BT 7000? 30,768,279 God delivers the Hazorites. Joshua 11:8-12, BT 1000? 30,769,279 Massacre of the Anakim Joshua 11:20-21, BT 1000? 30,770,279 God delivered Canaanites and Perizzites Judges 1:4, BT 10,000 30,780,279 Ehud delivers a message from God: a knife into the king's belly Jg.3:15-22, BT 1 30,780,280 God delivered Moabites Jg.3:28-29, BT 10,000 30,790,280 Massacre of the Canaanites Jg.4:15, BT 1000? 30,791,280 God forces Midianite soldiers to kill each other. Jg.7:2-22, 8:10, BT 120,000 30,911,280 God delivered the Ammonites to Jephthah to slaughter. Jg.11:32-33, BT 1000? 30,912,280 The Spirit of the Lord comes on Samson Jg.14:19, BT 30 30,912,310 The Spirit of the Lord comes mightily on Samson Jg.15:14-15, BT 1000 30,913,310 Samson's God-assisted act of terrorism Jg.16:27-30, BT 3000 30,916,310 "The Lord smote Benjamin" Jg.20:35-37, BT 25,100 30,941,410 More Benjamites Jg.20:44-46 25,000 30,966,410 For looking into the ark of the Lord 1 Sam.6:19, BT 50,070 31,016,480 God delivered Philistines 1 Sam.14:12, BT 20 31,016,500 God forces the Philistine soldiers to kill each other. 1 Sam.14:20, BT 1000? 31,017,500 God orders Saul to kill every Amalekite man, women, and child. 1 Sam.15:2-3, BT 1000? 31,018,500 Samuel (at God's command) hacks Agag to death 1 Sam.15:32-33, BT 1 31,018,501 God delivers the Philistines. 1 Sam.23:2-5 1000? 31,019,501 "The Lord smote Nabal." 1 Sam.25:38 1 31,019,502 God delivers the Philistines to David (again). 2 Sam.5:19, 25 1000? 31,020,502 Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling 2 Sam.6:6-7, 1 Chr.13:9-10 1 31,020,503 David and Bathsheba's baby boy 2 Samuel 12:14-18 1 31,020,504 God sent a three-year famine because of something Saul did. 2 Sam.21:1 5000? 31,025,504 Seven sons of Saul hung up before the Lord 2 Sam.21:6-9 7 31,025,511 From plague as punishment for David's census (men only; probably 200,000 if including women and children) 2 Sam.24:13, 1 Chr.21:7 70,000+ 31,095,511 A prophet for believing another prophet's lie 1 Kg.13:1-24 1 31,095,512 Baasha killed everyone in the house of Jeroboam "according to the saying of the Lord." 1 Kings 15:29 1000? 31,096,512 Zimri killed everyone in the house of Baasha "according to the word of the Lord." 1 Kg.16:11-12 1000? 31,097,512 Religious leaders killed in a prayer contest 1 Kg.18:22-40 450 31,097,962 God delivers the Syrians into the Israelites' hands 1 Kg.20:28-29 100,000 31,197,962 God makes a wall fall on Syrian soldiers 1 Kg.20:30 27,000 31,224,962 God sent a lion to eat a man for not killing a prophet 1 Kg.20:35-36 1 31,224,963 Ahaziah is killed for talking to the wrong god. 2 Kings 1:2-4, 17, 2 Chr.22:7-9 1 31,224,964 Burned to death by God 2 Kg.1:9-12 102 31,225,066 God sends two bears to kill children for making fun of Elisha's bald head 2 Kg.2:23-24 42 31,225,108 Trampled to death for disbelieving Elijah 2 Kg.7:17-20 1 31,225,109 God calls for a seven year famine. 2 Kg.8:1 10,000? 31,235,109 Jezebel 2 Kg.9:33-37 1 31,235,110 Jehu killed "all that remained unto Ahab in Samaria ... according to the saying of the Lord" 2 Kg.10:16-17 100? 31,235,210 God sent lions to kill "some" foreigners 2 Kg.17:25-26 3+ 31,235,213 Sleeping Assyrian soldiers 2 Kg.19:35, 2 Chr.32:21, Is.37:36 185,000 31,420,213 Saul 1 Chronicles 10:14 1 31,420,214 God delivers Israel into the hands of Judah 2 Chronicles 13:15-17 500,000 31,920,214 Jeroboam 2 Chr.13:20 1 31,920,215 "The Lord smote the Ethiopians." 2 Chr.14:9-14 1,000,000 32,920,215 God kills Jehoram by making his bowels fall out 2 Chr.21:14-19 1 32,920,216 Judean soldiers because they had forsaken the Lord 2 Chr.28:6 120,000 33,040,216 God delivered the Israelites into the hand of the Chaldeans. 2 Chr.36:16-17 1000? 33,041,216 Ezekiel's wife Ezekiel 24:15-18 1 33,041,217 Ananias and Sapphira Acts 5:1-10 2 33,041,219 Herod Acts 12:23, BT 1 33,041,220
The act of murder is rampant in the Bible, so for Muslims and the rest
I love God but how do I get around all that he murders, I truly don't want to have anything to do with a murdering God and using logic for me doesn't answer it ether.
thanks
In much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, there are laws that command that people be killed for absurd reasons such as working on the Sabbath, being gay, cursing your parents, or not being a virgin on your wedding night.
There are also countless examples of mass murders commanded by God, including the murder of women, infants, and children.
By seeking out the wisdom and counsel of believers who are far more intelligent and learned than either you or I--at least that's the approach I have used--fides quaerens intellectum.
In short, You won't find satisfactory answers to these deep questions via City-Data or "Twitter"--you have to put in a lot of time and study.
I am a Roman Catholic and my "North Star" is St. Thomas Aquinas. I also have a soft spot for St. Augustine because...well....I won't go there.
William Lane Craig is one of the most learned Christian men alive today, in my opinion. His lectures are free. I urge you to go to his site and listen to some of what he has to say:
About all I can say is that if God gives life, it is His right to take it away. To me, murder isn't taking away life; it's taking away life we are not in the position to give. In other words, God can't murder. He can only take back what He chose to give. I agree, though, it is hard to understand. I don't read the Old Testament all that much, and this is a big part of the reason.
This is why I don't accept that the Bible is infallible. I think the Word of God is in the Bible, but it is wrapped in words of humans - the effort of human beings to describe the history of their faith without the benefit of full knowledge and understanding that God has. Human beings attributed certain things to God and described them accordingly. I cannot today read the Old Testament and square the image of the wrathful God with the promises of the New Testament, unless I accept that not everything described in the Old Testament (and some in the New also!) happened exactly as described or exactly for the reasons described. That does not mean I abandon passages of the Bible that are disturbing to me or contradictory to what I feel the Holy Spirit leads me to, but it does mean I don't always accept literally the words as they appear on the page. I am sure they are preserved for a reason, just maybe the reason is not very clear.
The poster who said you won't find the answers you need on bulletin boards like this is right on. You need to spend time reading the Bible itself and delve into some of the Bible commentaries that are available. Go to a secular bookstore, like Barnes & Noble, to get a broader selection. I'm a huge fan of Bishop Shelby Spong who wrote "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalists". Just as I was ready to turn away from the Bible, I read that book and was brought back to it.
About all I can say is that if God gives life, it is His right to take it away. To me, murder isn't taking away life; it's taking away life we are not in the position to give. In other words, God can't murder. He can only take back what He chose to give. I agree, though, it is hard to understand. I don't read the Old Testament all that much, and this is a big part of the reason.
Couldn't agree more Kat......God is the giver and the taker when it comes to life. When you think about it, He gave and will take all of our lives. We all must die, whether it's by a mass flood or individually in our own time because of the sins of Adam. He's not a murderer, He is a giver and we must think of Him in those terms. He is the most High God and we cannot put Him on the same level as a human being. He cannot commit murder, it is not His nature.
I don't read the NT either....it doesn't represent God as I see Him.
This is why I don't accept that the Bible is infallible. I think the Word of God is in the Bible, but it is wrapped in words of humans - the effort of human beings to describe the history of their faith without the benefit of full knowledge and understanding that God has. Human beings attributed certain things to God and described them accordingly. I cannot today read the Old Testament and square the image of the wrathful God with the promises of the New Testament, unless I accept that not everything described in the Old Testament (and some in the New also!) happened exactly as described or exactly for the reasons described. That does not mean I abandon passages of the Bible that are disturbing to me or contradictory to what I feel the Holy Spirit leads me to, but it does mean I don't always accept literally the words as they appear on the page. I am sure they are preserved for a reason, just maybe the reason is not very clear.
The poster who said you won't find the answers you need on bulletin boards like this is right on. You need to spend time reading the Bible itself and delve into some of the Bible commentaries that are available. Go to a secular bookstore, like Barnes & Noble, to get a broader selection. I'm a huge fan of Bishop Shelby Spong who wrote "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalists". Just as I was ready to turn away from the Bible, I read that book and was brought back to it.
This is how I view the OT as well. In that age they certainly did attribute to God all things they didn't understand. Take for example the passage in 2 Samuel 24 where supposedly God slaughters 70,000 people with a plague. The interesting thing is that the word translated as plague in the NIV is deber which really means murrain or pestilence. Murrain is a cattle disease. This whole incident hardly makes any sense... it never reveals what was wrong with counting the men. But.... it was David's choice between three things and yet he leaves it up to God.
Can you imagine what was REALLY happening? Surely the story was written AFTER the incident and not before. So perhaps 70k people did die and the explanation was that David counted the men. BUT is that what would happen today? We would figure out that it was the cattle disease that killed the people and it would have never happened this way. But in that day they were told to eat clean animals... but as we know even clean animals get sick and cause people to get sick as well.
These primitive minds didn't have the tools to determine what REALLY happened...
My conclusion.... God received much more credit for murder then than now... why? Because now we know better. The OT is not the history of God but the history of the Hebrews.
The act of murder is rampant in the Bible, so for Muslims and the rest
I love God but how do I get around all that he murders, I truly don't want to have anything to do with a murdering God and using logic for me doesn't answer it ether.
thanks
In much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, there are laws that command that people be killed for absurd reasons such as working on the Sabbath, being gay, cursing your parents, or not being a virgin on your wedding night.
There are also countless examples of mass murders commanded by God, including the murder of women, infants, and children.
God drowns everyone on earth (except Noah and his family) Genesis 7:23, BT 30,000,000? 30,000,000 God rains fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah, killing everyone. Gen.19:24, BT 1000? 30,001,000 Lot's wife for looking back Gen.19:26, BT 1 30,001,001 Er who was "wicked in the sight of the Lord" Gen.38:7, 1 Chr.2:3, BT 1 30,001,002 Onan for spilling his seed Gen.38:10, BT 1 30,001,003 7th Egyptian Plague: Hail Exodus 9:25, BT 30,000? 30,031,003 God kills every Egyptian firstborn child. Ex.12:29-30, BT 500,000? 30,531,003 God drowns Egyptian army Ex.14:28, BT 1000? 30,532,003 God and Moses help Joshua kill the Amalekites Ex.17:13, BT 1000? 30,533,003 For dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf Ex.32:27-28, 35, BT 3000 30,536,003 Aaron's sons for offering strange fire before the Lord Lev.10:1-3, Num.3:4, 26:61, BT 2 30,536,005 A blasphemer Lev.24:10-23, BT 1 30,536,006 God burned to death an unknown number for complaining Numbers 11:1, BT 100? 30,536,106 God sent "a very great plague" for complaining about the food. Num.11:33, BT 10,000? 30,546,106 God killed those who murmured with a plague. Num.14:35-36, BT 100? 30,546,206 A man who picked up sticks on the SabbathNum.15:32-36, BT 1 30,546,207 Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families) Num.16:27, BT 12+ 30,546,219 Burned to death for offering incense Num.16:35, 26:10, BT 250 30,546,469 For complaining Num.16:49, BT 14,700 30,561,169 Massacre of the Aradites Num.21:1-3, BT 3000? 30,564,169 For complaining about the lack of food and water, God sent fiery serpents to bite the people, and many of them died. Num.21:6, BT 100? 30,564,269 God delivers the Bashanites into Moses' hands and Moses kills everyone "until there was none left alive." Num.21:34-35, BT 1000? 30,565,269 For "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab" Num.25:9, BT 24,000 30,589,269 Midianite massacre (32,000 virgins were kept alive) Num.31:1-35, BT 90,000+ 30,679,269 The slaughter of the Anakim, the childen of Esau, and the Horim Deuteronomy 2:21-22 5000? 30,684,269 God hardened the king of Heshbon's heart so that the Israelites could massacre his people. (included several cities) Dt.2:33-34, BT 3000? 30,687,269 God delievered the king of Bashan so that the Israelites could massacre his people. Dt.3:3-6 60,000? 30,747,269 Massacre of Jericho Joshua 6:21, BT 1000? 30,748,269 God tells Joshua to stone to death Achan (and his family) for taking the accursed thing. Joshua 7:10-12, 24-26, BT 5+ 30,748,274 God tells Joshua to attack Ai and do what he did to Jericho (kill everyone). Joshua 8:1-25, BT 12,000 30,760,274 God slaughters the Amorites and even chases them "along the way" as they try to escape. Joshua 10:10-11, BT 1000? 30,761,274 Joshua kills 5 kings and hangs their dead bodies on trees Joshua 10:24-26, BT 5 30,761,279 Massacre of 7 cities Joshua 10:28-42, BT 7000? 30,768,279 God delivers the Hazorites. Joshua 11:8-12, BT 1000? 30,769,279 Massacre of the Anakim Joshua 11:20-21, BT 1000? 30,770,279 God delivered Canaanites and Perizzites Judges 1:4, BT 10,000 30,780,279 Ehud delivers a message from God: a knife into the king's belly Jg.3:15-22, BT 1 30,780,280 God delivered Moabites Jg.3:28-29, BT 10,000 30,790,280 Massacre of the Canaanites Jg.4:15, BT 1000? 30,791,280 God forces Midianite soldiers to kill each other. Jg.7:2-22, 8:10, BT 120,000 30,911,280 God delivered the Ammonites to Jephthah to slaughter. Jg.11:32-33, BT 1000? 30,912,280 The Spirit of the Lord comes on Samson Jg.14:19, BT 30 30,912,310 The Spirit of the Lord comes mightily on Samson Jg.15:14-15, BT 1000 30,913,310 Samson's God-assisted act of terrorism Jg.16:27-30, BT 3000 30,916,310 "The Lord smote Benjamin" Jg.20:35-37, BT 25,100 30,941,410 More Benjamites Jg.20:44-46 25,000 30,966,410 For looking into the ark of the Lord 1 Sam.6:19, BT 50,070 31,016,480 God delivered Philistines 1 Sam.14:12, BT 20 31,016,500 God forces the Philistine soldiers to kill each other. 1 Sam.14:20, BT 1000? 31,017,500 God orders Saul to kill every Amalekite man, women, and child. 1 Sam.15:2-3, BT 1000? 31,018,500 Samuel (at God's command) hacks Agag to death 1 Sam.15:32-33, BT 1 31,018,501 God delivers the Philistines. 1 Sam.23:2-5 1000? 31,019,501 "The Lord smote Nabal." 1 Sam.25:38 1 31,019,502 God delivers the Philistines to David (again). 2 Sam.5:19, 25 1000? 31,020,502 Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling 2 Sam.6:6-7, 1 Chr.13:9-10 1 31,020,503 David and Bathsheba's baby boy 2 Samuel 12:14-18 1 31,020,504 God sent a three-year famine because of something Saul did. 2 Sam.21:1 5000? 31,025,504 Seven sons of Saul hung up before the Lord 2 Sam.21:6-9 7 31,025,511 From plague as punishment for David's census (men only; probably 200,000 if including women and children) 2 Sam.24:13, 1 Chr.21:7 70,000+ 31,095,511 A prophet for believing another prophet's lie 1 Kg.13:1-24 1 31,095,512 Baasha killed everyone in the house of Jeroboam "according to the saying of the Lord." 1 Kings 15:29 1000? 31,096,512 Zimri killed everyone in the house of Baasha "according to the word of the Lord." 1 Kg.16:11-12 1000? 31,097,512 Religious leaders killed in a prayer contest 1 Kg.18:22-40 450 31,097,962 God delivers the Syrians into the Israelites' hands 1 Kg.20:28-29 100,000 31,197,962 God makes a wall fall on Syrian soldiers 1 Kg.20:30 27,000 31,224,962 God sent a lion to eat a man for not killing a prophet 1 Kg.20:35-36 1 31,224,963 Ahaziah is killed for talking to the wrong god. 2 Kings 1:2-4, 17, 2 Chr.22:7-9 1 31,224,964 Burned to death by God 2 Kg.1:9-12 102 31,225,066 God sends two bears to kill children for making fun of Elisha's bald head 2 Kg.2:23-24 42 31,225,108 Trampled to death for disbelieving Elijah 2 Kg.7:17-20 1 31,225,109 God calls for a seven year famine. 2 Kg.8:1 10,000? 31,235,109 Jezebel 2 Kg.9:33-37 1 31,235,110 Jehu killed "all that remained unto Ahab in Samaria ... according to the saying of the Lord" 2 Kg.10:16-17 100? 31,235,210 God sent lions to kill "some" foreigners 2 Kg.17:25-26 3+ 31,235,213 Sleeping Assyrian soldiers 2 Kg.19:35, 2 Chr.32:21, Is.37:36 185,000 31,420,213 Saul 1 Chronicles 10:14 1 31,420,214 God delivers Israel into the hands of Judah 2 Chronicles 13:15-17 500,000 31,920,214 Jeroboam 2 Chr.13:20 1 31,920,215 "The Lord smote the Ethiopians." 2 Chr.14:9-14 1,000,000 32,920,215 God kills Jehoram by making his bowels fall out 2 Chr.21:14-19 1 32,920,216 Judean soldiers because they had forsaken the Lord 2 Chr.28:6 120,000 33,040,216 God delivered the Israelites into the hand of the Chaldeans. 2 Chr.36:16-17 1000? 33,041,216 Ezekiel's wife Ezekiel 24:15-18 1 33,041,217 Ananias and Sapphira Acts 5:1-10 2 33,041,219 Herod Acts 12:23, BT 1 33,041,220
God does not murder. He judges individuals and nations according to His justice. Man has no right to question God's holiness. He gives life and He has the right to remove from this earth those who disobey Him. And He has the right to eternally condemn to the lake of fire, those who reject Christ as Savior.
God's commands to kill as recorded in the Old Testament accounts were righteous and just. God's commands to kill the enemies of the Israelites were to both punish those who defied God and to prevent their ways from being adopted by His people.
Also, being under the law, which was given to man to show that man is incapable of keeping the law, God had to impose strict punishments on those that broke the law.
Further, God has the right both then and now to, under maximum discipline, remove from this earth believers who continually disobey Him and refuse to respond to lesser discipline.
God desires that all men be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. But God can only save those who come to Him through Jesus Christ. Jesus, who is God, became a man so that He could go to the Cross and pay the penalty for man's sin. In so doing, He made eternal salvation possible for all who will believe in Christ.
Acts 16:31. ''Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...
John 3:16 ''For God so loved the world, that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whosoever believes in Him, should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son, has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
Last edited by Michael Way; 06-27-2010 at 11:54 AM..
Also, being under the law, which was given to man to show that man is incapable of keeping the law, God had to impose strict punishments on those that broke the law.
So the law showed that man was INCAPABLE of keeping the law so God punishes those who break it?
That makes no sense at all! IF man is INCAPABLE of keeping the law then is it FAIR or JUST to punish them for breaking it? IF you asked your child to do something they were INCAPABLE of doing would YOU punish them?
If logic doesn't work for you, then here is what you are looking for (and you already are looking for an out of this christian god deal, you just can not make the leap yet). Listen to your heart, totally unreflectedly, it is saying, only as pure feeling totally thoughtless, there is no god (one can not say, if god is love he would not do that; well because you would be using logic), this you want to admit, but are afraid to. But you can not reflect on, there is no god because then you would be entering logic, so you can not have any thoughts here at all! So, you do not love god as you say, you just feel something for something that you want to feel good about thoughtlessly (secretly you want to love something outside of yourself, but you want that outside thing to be as you want it-yourself; you just don't have the where with all to dream it up yet; perhaps a holdover from you upbringing) no thought, no direction, you just want the pure immediate. You are a closet mystic, you want to merge with something, to be lost in it, to become one with it, to thoughtlessly meditate your way in without meditating on anything; but you want it to conform to your thoughtless wants. Become an atheist, and when you die you will become one with nothingness (mind) and one with the cosmos (dirt)-the atheists are the true mystics.
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The OT is not the history of God but the history of the Hebrews.
