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Old 04-09-2012, 01:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Ah, but it is, for you are teaching a false doctrine; man's tradition and refuse to study the Scriptures instead of blindly following what you've been taught!

Paul spoke of resurrection, not a rapture, and he told those of Cornith 'we' shall all be changed…’ he did not say we shall all be physically raptured, nor did he mention a two-stage return.

Messiah taught resurrection, not a rapture when He said, "I will raise them up at the last day of this age."

The truth of the matter is in the Scriptures, for all, YOU included, to see IF one is willing to lay aside their PRIDE and search for truth.

You have been shown by myself and others the rapture was first perpetuated by MAN and you refuse to listen.

You have set yourself up as a TEACHER and what you teach is contrary to what the men of the Scriptures taught.

I have shown you some facts that prove it's a false teaching i.e the doctrine of men and yet you blindly and pridefully refuse to look into the matter.

You blindly follow Scofield and such and refuse to do a thorough study on the subject.

Rapture teachers as yourself keep on insisting the 'church' is not mentioned in chapters 4-21and yet the church IS mentioned in the usage of many words: "Lampstand," "temple" "city" and “witnesses” are used in chapter 11, and in chapter 21 we find “bride.

John is instructed to "rise and measure the temple of God" (11:1), a term that stands for the whole church of Jews and gentiles (1 Cor. 3:16; Eph. 2:21).

When Messiah commissioned His church he says, "You shall be My witnesses in..." (Acts1: 8 ).

Also "saints" are shown to be on the earth throughout the chapters describing the GT.

How is it possible to be a post-Pentecost saint and not be a member of the church, unless one imports a hyper-dispensationalist hypothesis that "explains" how tribulation saints are not in the church?

And BTW the whole book of Revelation is written to 'the church' and 22:16 specifically says that the testimony of the book of Revelation is "for the churches."

Since the word "Rapture" is not in Matthew 24:31 it's argued since it's used it's not about the rapture. However using this reasoning then 2 Thess. 2:1, ("our gathering together to Him") nor Rev. 11:12 (“Come up here”) would qualify as a rapture passages either.

Let's look at this passage:

1 Thess. 5:9 'For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Now show me where this passage says the 'church' cannot be on the earth when God's wrath is poured out.

Now it is
true God's wrath is poured out during the great tribulation (Rev. 6:17, 15:1, 16:1), but it's not true all ppl on the earth [at the time of the GT] are the subjects of God's wrath.

Revelation speaks about saints on earth during the time that God's wrath is being displayed (7:14, 11:3-12, 12:6, 13-17, 13:7, 14:12, 16:15) and some of these saints are the very agents of God's wrath (Rev.11:5-6).

Messiah taught His followers the saints would be on the earth during the GT and they'd be gathered together after the tribulation (Matt. 24:3-31, note vv. 29-31).

BTW, The saints are not the target of God's wrath during this time, but are persecuted by the beast (Rev. 13:7).

When Messiah comes, His wrath is directed toward those who are persecuting the saints,

How do we know this?
He provides relief for the suffering saints (2 Thess. 1:6-10).

Now I know you teach these "saints" are converted Jews. However there can be no doubt believing Jews are portrayed as members of the church (Pentecost/the coming of the Lord) as here: Eph. 2:14; Rev. 2:8-11, and Rev. 3:7-13.

Again I could say a whole lot more, but will stop for now.

BTW, as long as you continue to teach this false event I will correct you.
Readers simply refer to post #56.
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Old 04-09-2012, 02:19 PM
 
2,532 posts, read 2,021,839 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckmann View Post
Ya know, Mike, I want to know where JESUS specifically stated the rapture doctrine. I dont want to hear about Psalms or Revelation or wherever. JUST the PRECISE words of Jesus on the topic.

FACT: Rapture was an invention of the 19th century.

Those who take a preconceived notion then spend their time searching the bible for those words and phrases will inevitably succeed. That doesn't make their doctrines right.
MT 24:31 "And He shall send his Angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds [of earth], from one end of heaven to the other." We are in the Kingdom of Heaven, the first Heaven. Before Christ returns, all who die in the Lord will go to Paradise, the second Heaven. When He returns, He will come with the Power and the Glory of 3rd Heaven. Hence it says we will be gathered from one end of Heaven [the first] to the other end [the 3rd] with Paradise being bypassed because those in Paradise will go into the 3rd Heaven and Paradise will be no more, because it will be superseded by the 3rd. We will be gathered together with them in the 3rd Heaven.

Mark says it even clearer.
MK 13:27 "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." The believers are taken from earth no matter where they are even the uttermost parts and taken to the uttermost part of Heaven which indicates there are other parts of Heaven which as I have said are the first part [we in the Kingdom] and and the 2nd part which is Paradise [those who have died in the Lord].

2COR 12:2-5 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knows such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, [whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knows;] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

The thief on the cross went to Paradise as Jesus said. The 3rd Heaven is yet to appear and it will be made up of all who are in Paradise and all who are alive and remain unto the return of Christ. Hence the expression:
1THESS 4:17-18 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." The clouds are not earthly clouds but rather Clouds of Glory. He is coming with greater Clouds of Glory. One for each of His saints. Clouds are metaphors for where the Waters of Life are stored and the "air" is the purest spiritual air of the 3rd Heaven. The rapture/caught up is not into this atmosphere but the atmosphere of the 3rd Heaven.

There is a Cloud of Glory upon every believer and a greater Cloud of Glory upon every true assembly.
Clouds have always been used by God to represent the Glory as we can find it used as far back in Isaiah and beyond.
IS 4:3-5 "And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remains in Jerusalem, shall be called Holy, even every one that is written among the living [redeemed] in Jerusalem: When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning. And the Lord will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night:"

It is in the Cloud of transfiguration that all these wonders are "seen" as it was when Peter went up the mountain with Jesus and behold a Cloud overshadowed them.
HEB 12:22-24 "But you are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the Heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things that that of Abel."

All this can only be "seen" by the Spirit not the natural eye. To understand by the Spirit is to "see".
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Old 04-09-2012, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Someplace Wonderful
5,178 posts, read 3,909,139 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123 View Post
MT 24:31 "And He shall send his Angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds [of earth], from one end of heaven to the other." We are in the Kingdom of Heaven, the first Heaven. Before Christ returns, all who die in the Lord will go to Paradise, the second Heaven. When He returns, He will come with the Power and the Glory of 3rd Heaven. Hence it says we will be gathered from one end of Heaven [the first] to the other end [the 3rd] with Paradise being bypassed because those in Paradise will go into the 3rd Heaven and Paradise will be no more, because it will be superseded by the 3rd. We will be gathered together with them in the 3rd Heaven.

Mark says it even clearer.
MK 13:27 "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." The believers are taken from earth no matter where they are even the uttermost parts and taken to the uttermost part of Heaven which indicates there are other parts of Heaven which as I have said are the first part [we in the Kingdom] and and the 2nd part which is Paradise [those who have died in the Lord].

2COR 12:2-5 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knows such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, [whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knows;] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

The thief on the cross went to Paradise as Jesus said. The 3rd Heaven is yet to appear and it will be made up of all who are in Paradise and all who are alive and remain unto the return of Christ. Hence the expression:
1THESS 4:17-18 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." The clouds are not earthly clouds but rather Clouds of Glory. He is coming with greater Clouds of Glory. One for each of His saints. Clouds are metaphors for where the Waters of Life are stored and the "air" is the purest spiritual air of the 3rd Heaven. The rapture/caught up is not into this atmosphere but the atmosphere of the 3rd Heaven.

There is a Cloud of Glory upon every believer and a greater Cloud of Glory upon every true assembly.
Clouds have always been used by God to represent the Glory as we can find it used as far back in Isaiah and beyond.
IS 4:3-5 "And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remains in Jerusalem, shall be called Holy, even every one that is written among the living [redeemed] in Jerusalem: When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning. And the Lord will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night:"

It is in the Cloud of transfiguration that all these wonders are "seen" as it was when Peter went up the mountain with Jesus and behold a Cloud overshadowed them.
HEB 12:22-24 "But you are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the Heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things that that of Abel."

All this can only be "seen" by the Spirit not the natural eye. To understand by the Spirit is to "see".
Thank you garya. I will read through your citations, in context (not just the few words of each) and contemplate. With sincerity.
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Old 04-09-2012, 03:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chuckmann View Post
Thank you garya. I will read through your citations, in context (not just the few words of each) and contemplate. With sincerity.
Your welcome and I hope others will study it too and find that it clears up the matter of what rapture/caught up really means.

Last edited by garya123; 04-09-2012 at 04:16 PM..
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Old 04-09-2012, 05:20 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,191,801 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hilgi View Post
I never knew the history of this doctrine. Had I known it came from an 1830 “prophetess” I would have ignored it a lot sooner.
Is the Pretribulation Rapture Theory Biblical?
The word rapture simply means to be "caught up". God says we, who are living, will be "caught up" at the appointed time 1 Thessalonians 4:1

There are not two second comings of Christ which is where the incorrect teaching of the millennialism comes into play. Jesus says that all will see him, and the dead will come out of the graves.

When "the" (as in the one and only) Last Day comes, everything comes to an end.
  • all the dead will rise (believers first then unbelievers)
  • the universe will fall out of it's place
  • the sun stops shining
  • the earth will be destroyed
  • it's no secret
    • "every eye will see him"
    • "the loud trumpet call of God"
    • "the command of everyone to rise"
    • "the angels gathering"
The rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:1) is part of the events that take place. Millennialism is chiliasm, and has been condemned os HERETICAL throughout the history of the church.
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Old 04-09-2012, 05:29 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,646,910 times
Reputation: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123 View Post
MT 24:31 "And He shall send his Angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds [of earth], from one end of heaven to the other." We are in the Kingdom of Heaven, the first Heaven. Before Christ returns, all who die in the Lord will go to Paradise, the second Heaven. When He returns, He will come with the Power and the Glory of 3rd Heaven. Hence it says we will be gathered from one end of Heaven [the first] to the other end [the 3rd] with Paradise being bypassed because those in Paradise will go into the 3rd Heaven and Paradise will be no more, because it will be superseded by the 3rd. We will be gathered together with them in the 3rd Heaven.

Mark says it even clearer.
MK 13:27 "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." The believers are taken from earth no matter where they are even the uttermost parts and taken to the uttermost part of Heaven which indicates there are other parts of Heaven which as I have said are the first part [we in the Kingdom] and and the 2nd part which is Paradise [those who have died in the Lord].

2COR 12:2-5 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knows such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, [whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knows;] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

The thief on the cross went to Paradise as Jesus said. The 3rd Heaven is yet to appear and it will be made up of all who are in Paradise and all who are alive and remain unto the return of Christ. Hence the expression:
1THESS 4:17-18 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." The clouds are not earthly clouds but rather Clouds of Glory. He is coming with greater Clouds of Glory. One for each of His saints. Clouds are metaphors for where the Waters of Life are stored and the "air" is the purest spiritual air of the 3rd Heaven. The rapture/caught up is not into this atmosphere but the atmosphere of the 3rd Heaven.

There is a Cloud of Glory upon every believer and a greater Cloud of Glory upon every true assembly.
Clouds have always been used by God to represent the Glory as we can find it used as far back in Isaiah and beyond.
IS 4:3-5 "And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remains in Jerusalem, shall be called Holy, even every one that is written among the living [redeemed] in Jerusalem: When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning. And the Lord will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night:"

It is in the Cloud of transfiguration that all these wonders are "seen" as it was when Peter went up the mountain with Jesus and behold a Cloud overshadowed them.
HEB 12:22-24 "But you are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the Heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things that that of Abel."

All this can only be "seen" by the Spirit not the natural eye. To understand by the Spirit is to "see".
gary, you would have saved yourself a lot of misinformation if you would have just looked up the meaning of the word 'heaven' as used in the passages you quoted.

It just means the vaulted expanse of the sky, not the abode of God. No 'person' is in heaven or is going to heaven.

Messiah made it quite clear He wouldn't raise those who have fallen asleep [resurrect from the dead] til the last day of this earth age when He returns at the last trump. There can only be ONE last trump and it sounds at His second coming.

And as far as 1 Thess. 4 IF Paul wanted to convince the Thessalonians the day of the Lord had not yet occurred and support the idea of a pretribulation rapture, he could have simply said, "The rapture happens first, and you Thessalonians HAVE NOT BEEN RAPTURED!" But he did not.

And BTW, a casual reading of Jeremiah 30 reveals the nations of the world are all drawn into the events described as "Jacob's Trouble" [GT].

We need to read what's written in regards to the gathering of the elect with the eyes of the "Jew. " Why? It would have been nonsensical to John, (himself a Jew) the believers of that day, and the early recipients of the book of Revelation to think there would be a two-part return of the Messiah, let alone a "rapture."

Shouldn't pretribulationists wonder why a book written to the churches about the revelation of Messiah make no mention of the rapture of the “church” on any page, [according to their terms]?

And while I'm at it. The word Paradise does not mean heaven. It's an Oriental word that means garden, and refers to the New Earth.

Also the thief could not have gone to the abode of God with Messiah 'that day' for Messiah Himself did not go to heaven that very same day.

Also Messiah did not take the thief to Paradise either.

And one last thing in regards to 1 Thess. 4. The word rise means to resurrect back to life. It has NOTHING to do with a rapture. Also the word meet means to escort a dignitary back to where you came from. Or the elect will meet Messiah as He descends [means to step down] in the air [which means the vaulted expanse of sky] and escort Him to the earth.

Again NO ONE is going to heaven and Messiah Himself is leaving the heaven to come to the earth to set up His kingdom.

That's why He told His followers, "the meek shall inherit the earth. "

Believers are NOT heaven bound, their destiny is to rule and reign with Messiah on the earth.

Take Peter, James, John, and Andrew, men who knew the Scriptures and knew/understood the promises to Israel.

When they were with Messiah on the Mt. of Olives [after leaving the temple] and heard His answers to their questions, and again later in the upper room, heard Him say, "I am coming again," would they suddenly believe He was talking about a coming other than the coming that they had questioned him about earlier?

Now put yourself in Peter's shoes and a couple of days after he watched Messiah ascend to heaven and the angel said, "He will return in LIKE MANNER," and someone asks you about Messiah's return....do you think you would speak of 2 separate returns? One a rapture of the 'church' and one His actual coming in like manner?

Never mind that the called out ones began back in the beginning with righteous Abel.

Never mind the book of Acts tells us Moses was in the "church" in the wilderness.

Never mind the continuation of the 'church' was founded on Jewish apostles, Jewish converts, and even has many Jewish converts today.

Never mind that the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia are addressed as Jewish "believers." Which BTW makes Jewish believers two of the seven churches addressed, by John , in the day of the Lord!!!

Again I could say so much more.....

Last edited by mshipmate; 04-09-2012 at 05:38 PM..
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Old 04-09-2012, 06:45 PM
 
2,532 posts, read 2,021,839 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
gary, you would have saved yourself a lot of misinformation if you would have just looked up the meaning of the word 'heaven' as used in the passages you quoted.

It just means the vaulted expanse of the sky, not the abode of God. No 'person' is in heaven or is going to heaven.

Messiah made it quite clear He wouldn't raise those who have fallen asleep [resurrect from the dead] til the last day of this earth age when He returns at the last trump. There can only be ONE last trump and it sounds at His second coming.

And as far as 1 Thess. 4 IF Paul wanted to convince the Thessalonians the day of the Lord had not yet occurred and support the idea of a pretribulation rapture, he could have simply said, "The rapture happens first, and you Thessalonians HAVE NOT BEEN RAPTURED!" But he did not.

And BTW, a casual reading of Jeremiah 30 reveals the nations of the world are all drawn into the events described as "Jacob's Trouble" [GT].

We need to read what's written in regards to the gathering of the elect with the eyes of the "Jew. " Why? It would have been nonsensical to John, (himself a Jew) the believers of that day, and the early recipients of the book of Revelation to think there would be a two-part return of the Messiah, let alone a "rapture."

Shouldn't pretribulationists wonder why a book written to the churches about the revelation of Messiah make no mention of the rapture of the “church” on any page, [according to their terms]?

And while I'm at it. The word Paradise does not mean heaven. It's an Oriental word that means garden, and refers to the New Earth.

Also the thief could not have gone to the abode of God with Messiah 'that day' for Messiah Himself did not go to heaven that very same day.

Also Messiah did not take the thief to Paradise either.

And one last thing in regards to 1 Thess. 4. The word rise means to resurrect back to life. It has NOTHING to do with a rapture. Also the word meet means to escort a dignitary back to where you came from. Or the elect will meet Messiah as He descends [means to step down] in the air [which means the vaulted expanse of sky] and escort Him to the earth.

Again NO ONE is going to heaven and Messiah Himself is leaving the heaven to come to the earth to set up His kingdom.

That's why He told His followers, "the meek shall inherit the earth. "

Believers are NOT heaven bound, their destiny is to rule and reign with Messiah on the earth.

Take Peter, James, John, and Andrew, men who knew the Scriptures and knew/understood the promises to Israel.

When they were with Messiah on the Mt. of Olives [after leaving the temple] and heard His answers to their questions, and again later in the upper room, heard Him say, "I am coming again," would they suddenly believe He was talking about a coming other than the coming that they had questioned him about earlier?

Now put yourself in Peter's shoes and a couple of days after he watched Messiah ascend to heaven and the angel said, "He will return in LIKE MANNER," and someone asks you about Messiah's return....do you think you would speak of 2 separate returns? One a rapture of the 'church' and one His actual coming in like manner?

Never mind that the called out ones began back in the beginning with righteous Abel.

Never mind the book of Acts tells us Moses was in the "church" in the wilderness.

Never mind the continuation of the 'church' was founded on Jewish apostles, Jewish converts, and even has many Jewish converts today.

Never mind that the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia are addressed as Jewish "believers." Which BTW makes Jewish believers two of the seven churches addressed, by John , in the day of the Lord!!!

Again I could say so much more.....
Say no more. Most of what you say here is false! Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to think I am talking about 2 separate returns, but that is not so. On the last day He will resurrect those in Paradise to the 3rd Heaven along with those who remain alive, in the twinkling of an eye and we will reign over the new heaven and new earth much like the Angels do over this one from Heaven. Invisible to the new inhabitants but influencing their life in ways not now known to us even as we do not know what the Angels are doing for us in this earth.

Those statements of "never mind" have nothing to do with the topic I was addressing which was the rapture/caught up. As far as "The meek shall inherit the earth" goes it is talking about having all things added to us if we "seek the Kingdom of God first and His righteousness." He desires for His own to "prosper [materially] and be in good health even as your soul prospers." as the Scripture says. Poverty is a great issue in life but God gives strength through righteousness to get your share of this earths abundance in order to live a proper life not as a beggar.

It is interesting that you quote from Acts where it says, "He will come in like manner." as it proves the point that He will not come in the same manner. He is coming in Power and Glory with the clouds of Heaven as He said. His departure was literal to the physical eye but because of the words "like manner" it becomes a metaphor for the real way in which He will return and every eye of every soul shall see Him other wise He would have to duplicate Himself many times over for everyone on earth to see Him in a physical way. The earth as you know is round.

The meek will not inherit this earth on the last day because it will dissolve with a fervent heat and a new earth will appear. All within the twinkling of an eye.

Paradise is one part of Heaven. One of the spiritual Heavens.
REV 2:7 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches; To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

The Tree of Life is in three places as the Scripture says.
REV 22:2 In the midst of the street [one] of it, and on either side [two and three] of the river, was there the Tree of Life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. He is in the New Jerasalem of the third Heaven and on either side of the River of Life. On the one side of the River of Life is Paradise and on the other side is the Kingdom of Heaven within, where we are. He rules all of the Heavens and earth.

Last edited by garya123; 04-09-2012 at 07:21 PM..
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:53 AM
 
Location: Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hilgi View Post
I never knew the history of this doctrine. Had I known it came from an 1830 “prophetess” I would have ignored it a lot sooner.
Is the Pretribulation Rapture Theory Biblical?
Actually, the whole rapture doctrine is false.

Jesus prayed thus: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." (John 17.15)

No flying away on a cloud. The ones who will be "left behind" are the wheat, not the chaff.

Aisi.


Blessings,
brian
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Old 04-10-2012, 10:04 AM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,646,910 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123 View Post
Say no more. Most of what you say here is false! Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to think I am talking about 2 separate returns, but that is not so. On the last day He will resurrect those in Paradise to the 3rd Heaven along with those who remain alive, in the twinkling of an eye and we will reign over the new heaven and new earth much like the Angels do over this one from Heaven. Invisible to the new inhabitants but influencing their life in ways not now known to us even as we do not know what the Angels are doing for us in this earth.

Those statements of "never mind" have nothing to do with the topic I was addressing which was the rapture/caught up. As far as "The meek shall inherit the earth" goes it is talking about having all things added to us if we "seek the Kingdom of God first and His righteousness." He desires for His own to "prosper [materially] and be in good health even as your soul prospers." as the Scripture says. Poverty is a great issue in life but God gives strength through righteousness to get your share of this earths abundance in order to live a proper life not as a beggar.

It is interesting that you quote from Acts where it says, "He will come in like manner." as it proves the point that He will not come in the same manner. He is coming in Power and Glory with the clouds of Heaven as He said. His departure was literal to the physical eye but because of the words "like manner" it becomes a metaphor for the real way in which He will return and every eye of every soul shall see Him other wise He would have to duplicate Himself many times over for everyone on earth to see Him in a physical way. The earth as you know is round.

The meek will not inherit this earth on the last day because it will dissolve with a fervent heat and a new earth will appear. All within the twinkling of an eye.

Paradise is one part of Heaven. One of the spiritual Heavens.
REV 2:7 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches; To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

The Tree of Life is in three places as the Scripture says.
REV 22:2 In the midst of the street [one] of it, and on either side [two and three] of the river, was there the Tree of Life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. He is in the New Jerasalem of the third Heaven and on either side of the River of Life. On the one side of the River of Life is Paradise and on the other side is the Kingdom of Heaven within, where we are. He rules all of the Heavens and earth.
Quote:
The meek will not inherit this earth on the last day because it will dissolve with a fervent heat and a new earth will appear. All within the twinkling of an eye.
Again you misunderstand what it is that will melt with a fervent heat. It's NOT this earth or even the elements [of the earth] that will melt it's the elements/rudiments [which mean elementary teachings] that will melt.

Ga 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements [stoicheion] of the world:

Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements,
[stoicheion] whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements
[stoicheion] shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements
[stoicheion] shall melt with fervent heat?

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments
[stoicheion] of the world, and not after Christ.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments [
stoicheion] of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Heb. 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles
[stoicheion]of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Messiah IS returning to the earth and WILL return in like manner to the Mt. of Olives [Zech. 14:4]
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Old 04-10-2012, 07:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Again you misunderstand what it is that will melt with a fervent heat. It's NOT this earth or even the elements [of the earth] that will melt it's the elements/rudiments [which mean elementary teachings] that will melt.

Ga 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements [stoicheion] of the world:

Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements,
[stoicheion] whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements [stoicheion] shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements [stoicheion] shall melt with fervent heat?

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments [stoicheion] of the world, and not after Christ.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments [stoicheion] of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Heb. 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles [stoicheion]of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Messiah IS returning to the earth and WILL return in like manner to the Mt. of Olives [Zech. 14:4]
The meaning of elements is in the context of what Scripture it is being used in. As in many Scripture there is the literal and the spiritual usage of a word. We had the debate of what heaven means and I was speaking of the 3 spiritual Heavens. There are the literal heavens that we can see and the spiritual Heavens that are unseen of which I was talking about.

The reason for this is that spiritual truths are parallel to the literal even as Jesus indicated.
JN 3:12 "If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" Jesus can only speak of Heavenly things in earthly ways because we are of this world. It is the Spirit that quickens the understanding and appreciation but only if we believe the literal thing first that He is using as an simile, parable, or metaphor and allegory.

ROM 1:20 "For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
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