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Old 07-02-2010, 01:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires View Post
Actually, asking you to "put your money where your mouth is" is an entirely rational suggestion in light of the bad and very dangerous theology you are pushing here.

There is a saying, "actions speak louder than words." If you really believed what you claim to believe about the nature of God and what He demands of you, you would put it into practice instead of just talk about it.

What part of what i have said is "bad" or evil ... Love your enemies? Turn the other cheek? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you? Overcome evil with goodness? Do good to those who hurt you? Pray for those who spitefully abuse you? Bless those who persecute you?

Which part of this is "bad or dangerous theology"? PLease explain how eternal torture is good and loving your enemies and doing good to those that abuse you is evil ... ?

 
Old 07-02-2010, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,702,072 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires View Post
This sounds a lot more like the language of pop psychology than the language of theological discussion. In my view, it also shows no respect for the diversity and complexity of human experience. It's a tone-deaf platitude that could have come from Dr. Phil.
I took it from scripture... I didn't know Dr. Phil read the bible....
 
Old 07-02-2010, 01:11 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,424,333 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Can you love Christ, without believing in Him?
Can you answer my question plainly without changing the subject?

Are you saying that we must love God before he can or will love us or not?
 
Old 07-02-2010, 01:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Who does He love?

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

The Law:

Deut 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he [is] God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Fulfilled Law:

Matt 5:17 I think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Psal 100:1-6 Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all ye lands. Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing. Know ye that the LORD he [is] God: [it is] he [that] hath made us, and not we ourselves; [we are] his people, and the sheep of his pasture. Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, [and] into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, [and] bless his name For the LORD [is] good; his mercy [is] everlasting; and his truth [endureth] to all generations.

Now watch here:

Psalm 103:17 But the mercy of the LORD [is] from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children; To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.

1 Cor 8:3 if any man love God, the same is known of God.

If any man love God, and is thereby influenced to love his neighbor, the same is known of God in loving him.

1 John 4:19 speaks directly to Christians, so the fact that its audience is not, is not the message and premise, but the fact is that the message is to Christians, about Christians and the love that God shows to those who believe in Him. It really ails me when I see the message ripped from its context to support the Universal Salvation lie.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

1 John 5:2-5 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

I can stop here.....as it seems pretty clear that God's love is directed yes to the world, but is not MADE MANIFEST in US until we believe in Christ.
That is the source of His love, through Christ, and through Christ, we are loved.



Why are you still doing this? Infusing 1 Tim 2:4 into the mix?
When are you people going to get that THELO - Desire/wants/will has nothing to do with something that God is going to decree? NOTHING.
Classic eisegesis.



God killed everyone on earth except for Noah, God had many people killed throught the OT times. God will send people to hell for rejecting His Son.

It is His nature for not following His precepts. He said so Himself.

The Lost is the Lost Sheep, the Lost House of Israel. And through the revelation of epistles to that lost House, comprises of Jew and Gentile in Covenant with God, to receive the blessings of God's love through Christ. You cannot be an Israelite and not love Christ.

Christ died for the Israelite. The whole purpose of the gospel, is to bring people into the fold.

Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Rev 21:1-2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

The themes never change. Israel is the chosen, and to believe in Christ, makes you an Israelite.
What i think is funny, though in truth it is very sad, is that those that defend and believe in eternal evil and everlasting hell are already in the proverbial hell and they dont even know it. They are cut off from the true love of Christ, and he stands on the outside knocking to be let back in.

Those who believe that God will condemn most of creation for everlasting live everyday with condemnation in their heart ... You are all under the very condemnation you defend.
 
Old 07-02-2010, 01:16 PM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,881,283 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
What part of what i have said is "bad" or evil ... Love your enemies? Turn the other cheek? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you? Overcome evil with goodness? Do good to those who hurt you? Pray for those who spitefully abuse you? Bless those who persecute you?

Which part of this is "bad or dangerous theology"? PLease explain how eternal torture is good and loving your enemies and doing good to those that abuse you is evil ... ?
Your bad and dangerous theology is the heresy of "Universal reconciliation."

I will repeat my original point to you since you seem to have gone off on a tangent:

"Overcoming evil with good...." -- I agree this is what we are commaneded to do, but you and I have serious differences as regards what God means by this commandment.

If you really believed everything you wrote above you would insist that all prisons were closed and offenders released into the community immediately. You would also insist that criminal and most civil laws were wiped off the books and never enforced. You would consider the Nuremberg trials and all war crimes tribunals an offence against God, the ever-loving creator.

You would welcome with open arms murderers, child abusers, and every form of criminal offenders to your dinner table and, if they needed it, into your home for shelter, no questions asked.

In short, your words may sound reasonable on paper (to some--not to me, however) but they must be followed by actions, otherwise they are just hollow words.
 
Old 07-02-2010, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,307,818 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
You should forgive, but that doesn't mean that people will ever forget. We aren't required to forget experiences, but we shouldn't be slaves to them either.
Hi CW2L,
well, my comment was not so much to tell other people what to do, as it was a hypothetical question: what would happen if we just "forgot" about sin?

Also, are Christians called to remember sin, or to cover it?
Doesn't love "cover a multitude of sins?"

Many blessings,
brian
 
Old 07-02-2010, 01:40 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,424,333 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires View Post
Your bad and dangerous theology is the heresy of "Universal reconciliation."

I will repeat my original point to you since you seem to have gone off on a tangent:

"Overcoming evil with good...." -- I agree this is what we are commaneded to do, but you and I have serious differences as regards what God means by this commandment.
Repeat whatever you want, but you did not answer the question.

So what do you believe that God does mean by it pray tell?
Quote:
If you really believed everything you wrote above you would insist that all prisons were closed and offenders released into the community immediately. You would also insist that criminal and most civil laws were wiped off the books and never enforced. You would consider the Nuremberg trials and all war crimes tribunals an offence against God, the ever-loving creator.
No sir, you are being silly, so long as we live in a corrupt world within this corrupt flesh, we have to have places to separate men and women who are dangerous to others from society. When the perfect is come, and the resurrection takes place, we will no longer be hindered by the corrupt flesh we indwell at this time. Then there will be no more need for governments or churches or religions or law at all, because then God will have reconciled all things to himself and will have subjected all power to Christ and then God shall be all and in all.
Quote:
You would welcome with open arms murderers, child abusers, and every form of criminal offenders to your dinner table and, if they needed it, into your home for shelter, no questions asked.
Paul was a murderer and God changed his heart, my mother abused me as a child and i have forgiven her and i receive her openly and love her greatly. I was sexually molested by my babysitter when i was in pre-school for almost a year, it scarred be worse than i care to mention, but i harbor to ill intention for her and i have forgiven her. I have had homeless people stay with me and helped them get on their feet more than a few times. I have been incarcerated and have come to know many violent offenders, and i have treated them like any other. You can stand in condemnation of all those that make terrible mistakes or fall to the weaknesses of their flesh all you want, the mentally sick and spiritually dead, but i will love them the same as i love you. I will use wisdom when dealing with dangerous people, but i will not live in condemnation over them as you seem so content to do.
Quote:

In short, your words may sound reasonable on paper (to some--not to me, however) but they must be followed by actions, otherwise they are just hollow words.
The doctrine of Universal Reconciliation was never deemed Heresy by any counsel. The last Pope was a universalist ... As a matter of fact UR(otherwise known as apokatastasis) was maintained by the Second Vatican Council and by Pope John Paul II and it is promoted in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church and in the post-Vatican II liturgy.


Quote:
“Christ, Redeemer of man, now for ever "clad in a robe dipped in blood" (Apoc, 19,13), the everlasting, invincible guarantee of universal salvation.” (Message Of John Paul II To The Abbess General Of The Order Of The Most Holy Saviour Of St Bridget)

“If the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, is to convince the world precisely of this "judgment," undoubtedly he does so to continue Christ's work aimed at universal salvation. We can therefore conclude that in bearing witness to Christ, the Paraclete is an assiduous (though invisible) advocate and defender of the work of salvation, and of all those engaged in this work. He is also the guarantor of the definitive triumph over sin and over the world subjected to sin, in order to free it from sin and introduce it into the way of salvation.” (The Holy Spirit as Advocate; General Audience — May 24, 1989)

“‘Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places’ (Eph. 1:3). These words of the Letter to the Ephesians reveal the eternal design of God the Father, his plan of man's salvation in Christ. It is a universal plan, which concerns all men and women created in the image and likeness of God (cf. Gen. 1:26). Just as all are included in the creative work of God ‘in the beginning,’ so all are eternally included in the divine plan of salvation, which is to be completely revealed, in the ‘fullness of time,’ with the final coming of Christ. In fact, the God who is the ‘Father of our Lord Jesus Christ’-these are the next words of the same Letter-‘chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace’ (Eph. 1:4-7).” (Encyclical, Redemptoris Mater 7:1)
I could continue but i think that i made my point. I am not a catholic, however Universal Salvation was never deemed or declared heresy by the Roman Catholic Church, only the idea that Satan and the fallen angels will also be saved was condemned.

My words are the words spoken by Christ, and though they may not be reasonable to men like yourself who prefer eye for an eye justice to turn the other cheek, that is the way of one who has the love of God in their heart. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your religion? MY words are not hollow sir, every who knows me knows that i walk the walk friend, i do not only talk the talk.

Universal reconciliation was the gospel preached throughout the world, and was believed and taught by the vast majority of Christians during the first 4 centuries, until Rome made Christianity the state religion and made ET the orthodox teaching, and what happened next? The dark ages and the crusades and the inquisitions and the witch hunts.

Universal reconciliation is the true Gospel, ET and Annihilation are the impostor doctrines, and that is an historical fact. Regardless of whether or not you or anyone else can receive it. I believe that one day you will ...



Though i am a sinner and am very weak, i have the love of God for the whole creation, for all people. I am sorry for all the "Christians" who do not experience this indwelling power of the love of God, but God will have mercy on whom he will, and whom he will harden he hardens. I believe that all things will eventually work out according to the will of God, and i trust that though he allows evil to exist in the world and in the heart and minds of most people, he will not allow that evil to ruin or cause his plan and purpose for the salvation of all people to come to not, but will in fact only cause evil to finally magnify the glory of his righteous judgment in his mercy and grace to towards all things.

Do not be deceived concerning this one thing, God WILL have all people to be saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth.


Sleah ...



Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 07-02-2010 at 02:16 PM..
 
Old 07-02-2010, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,307,818 times
Reputation: 869
[quote=sciotamicks;14873786
The OP believes that there will be reconciliation to all souls, yet I see nowhere in the Bible that this is truth...no where.
God has already reconciled men to Him, and that is through CHrist, and the gospel is strict, one must believe in Christ, in this life, to be resurrected with Him for ever....that's it. Once you are dead, it's finished.[/quote]

Sciotamicks,
perhaps you see people as alive, and about to die.
I am learning to see people as dead, and about to live.

We all died when Christ died. Sin has been put away.
My OP was to testify to the fact that I saw in my heart very clearly how "sin" and "hell" and "eternal torment" was causing me to hate my neighbor. When I began to look at people through the eyes of reconciliation as a DONE DEAL, I was then able to start to love my neighbor, and witness to the life of Christ arising in me. This has been my experience.

I still don't understand what ET-doctrine holders see as so "devilish" about God having reconciled all souls to Himself. Where is the evil in that?

Example:
An ETer tells "a lost soul" of the choice between Christ or hell. The "lost soul" "rejects" Christ.
An URer tells the same "lost soul" of the Love of Christ extended to him and encourages him to reconcile. The "lost soul" "rejects" it.

One has told him that he is condemned and hated by God until he "gets his act together."
The other has told him that God has given him new life to be enjoyed in Christ, whose burden is truly Light.

If you or someone here can explain exactly where the "deception" is in the message of the salvation of all things to God, I'm all ears.

Blessings,
brian
 
Old 07-02-2010, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,451,221 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Sciotamicks,
perhaps you see people as alive, and about to die.
I am learning to see people as dead, and about to live.
I see people as dead, and the chance to live through Christ.

Quote:
We all died when Christ died. Sin has been put away.
Indeed it has for those who put their trust in Him for that.

Quote:
My OP was to testify to the fact that I saw in my heart very clearly how "sin" and "hell" and "eternal torment" was causing me to hate my neighbor.
That is interesting when I first read it, because it helps me spread the gospel even more, so that they don't end up there.

Quote:
When I began to look at people through the eyes of reconciliation as a DONE DEAL, I was then able to start to love my neighbor, and witness to the life of Christ arising in me. This has been my experience.
I don't understand this, because nowhere does it say that mankind is recionciled even if he doesn't believe. The basic premise of the gospel is that through our belief in Christ, we are reconciled. The relationship is reconciled through Christ, and belief in Him makes it manifest in us.

Quote:
I still don't understand what ET-doctrine holders see as so "devilish" about God having reconciled all souls to Himself. Where is the evil in that?
There's nothing devlish about iMO, as it is to me, a false hope and a misinterpretation of the scriptures. In the Age to Come, the age that never ends, the dominion that goes on forever....there is still sin in those that live outside the New Jerusalem. It is obvious that once death is defeated, there is still death! It is only defeated for those who walk by its light.....and so forth.

Quote:
Example:
An ETer tells "a lost soul" of the choice between Christ or hell. The "lost soul" "rejects" Christ.
An URer tells the same "lost soul" of the Love of Christ extended to him and encourages him to reconcile. The "lost soul" "rejects" it.
Presenting the gospel is our duty, but it is the duty of God for who m He chooses to respond to it...not ours. Stop worrying about it. Get the message of the gospel right.
COME INTO THE COVENANT and YOU ARE FREE.

Quote:
If you or someone here can explain exactly where the "deception" is in the message of the salvation of all things to God, I'm all ears.
Because it is nowhere in the scriptures. God is a God of Covenant. He has rules. Please stop breaking them.
 
Old 07-02-2010, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,451,221 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Can you answer my question plainly without changing the subject?

Are you saying that we must love God before he can or will love us or not?
Read my following post on page 14...and yes...He loves Israel. That's it. That is the world to Him. That is the Heavens and Earth Isa 51:16...that is His order....That is the underlying and overall theme of the Bible. He loves His firstborn, He came to the House of Israel Matt 15:24, through believing in Him our sins are forgiven 1 John 1:9, and that an Israelite is who believes, regardless of ethinicity or social status 1 Tim 2:4. In order to become Loved by God, in our damned heathen state, is to become an Israelite....but how could you figure this out?...you are blind in UR....you discard the most crucial scriptures, becuase they don't fit in with your views. I accept the themes, and Israel is who He loves, who He came to save, and who He redeemed, and it is only by His grace and mercy, can us heathens, become a part of that tribe.....as it always was meant to be. And it is Israel, Zion, the New Jerusalem, is where that reconciliation is made manifest.
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