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Old 07-02-2010, 02:35 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,401,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Read my following post on page 14...and yes...He loves Israel. That's it. That is the world to Him. That is the Heavens and Earth Isa 51:16...that is His order....That is the underlying and overall theme of the Bible. He loves His firstborn, He came to the House of Israel Matt 15:24, through believing in Him our sins are forgiven 1 John 1:9, and that an Israelite is who believes, regardless of ethinicity or social status 1 Tim 2:4. In order to become Loved by God, in our damned heathen state, is to become an Israelite....but how could you figure this out?...you are blind in UR....you discard the most crucial scriptures, becuase they don't fit in with your views. I accept the themes, and Israel is who He loves, who He came to save, and who He redeemed, and it is only by His grace and mercy, can us heathens, become a part of that tribe.....as it always was meant to be. And it is Israel, Zion, the New Jerusalem, is where that reconciliation is made manifest.

I thought that is what you meant. Again, you are totally missing the mark, as the Scriptures clearly teach that we love God because he loved us first. That is to say we love God because he loved us before we loved him.

Also, God did prove his love for the whole world while we were yet enemies.

This is just more evidence of the elitist tradition of interpretation to which you subscribe.

You fail to realize that it is the power of God that saves us, and not our own power that saves us. We do not first love him by our own power and then he loves us. He loves us and then by the power of the holy spirit he leads us to repentance because of his Goodness and gives us the faith to believe. He make us new, we do not choose to be made new.

In so many words above you have admitted that you do not believe that God loves his enemies, even though Christ commanded us to, and in fact Christ provided example of it himself when he prayed to the father for the forgiveness of the very people, whom he called the children of the devil, that had murdered him.

So be it ...

 
Old 07-02-2010, 02:36 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,287,826 times
Reputation: 869
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I see people as dead, and the chance to live through Christ.



Indeed it has for those who put their trust in Him for that.



That is interesting when I first read it, because it helps me spread the gospel even more, so that they don't end up there.



I don't understand this, because nowhere does it say that mankind is recionciled even if he doesn't believe. The basic premise of the gospel is that through our belief in Christ, we are reconciled. The relationship is reconciled through Christ, and belief in Him makes it manifest in us.



There's nothing devlish about iMO, as it is to me, a false hope and a misinterpretation of the scriptures. In the Age to Come, the age that never ends, the dominion that goes on forever....there is still sin in those that live outside the New Jerusalem. It is obvious that once death is defeated, there is still death! It is only defeated for those who walk by its light.....and so forth.



Presenting the gospel is our duty, but it is the duty of God for who m He chooses to respond to it...not ours. Stop worrying about it. Get the message of the gospel right.
COME INTO THE COVENANT and YOU ARE FREE.



Because it is nowhere in the scriptures. God is a God of Covenant. He has rules. Please stop breaking them.
Hi Sciotamicks,
I think part of what it boils down to is, how powerful is one's God?
Paul was "apprehended" by Christ. He didn't even know his new Lord's name when he fell to the ground and cried, "who art thou, Lord?"
I believe this is what will be happening to the whole creation. "Who art thou, LORD??" Like, gee, I didn't know I had a Lord! And how beautiful, too!!

My time in fundamentalism served, if nothing else, in order for me to learn how to condemn my neighbor better. And I was getting good at it. In fact, I had never been so good at condemning people in my life! That's the truth.

Blessings to you,
brian
 
Old 07-02-2010, 02:39 PM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,876,458 times
Reputation: 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Repeat whatever you want, but you did not answer the question.

So what do you believe that God does mean by it pray tell?

No sir, you are being silly, so long as we live in a corrupt world within this corrupt flesh, we have to have places to separate men and women who are dangerous to others from society. When the perfect is come, and the resurrection takes place, we will no longer be hindered by the corrupt flesh we indwell at this time. Then there will be no more need for governments or churches or religions or law at all, because then God will have reconciled all things to himself and will have subjected all power to Christ and then God shall be all and in all.
Paul was a murderer and God changed his heart, my mother abused me as a child and i have forgiven her and i receive her openly and love her greatly. I was sexually molested by my babysitter when i was in pre-school for almost a year, it scarred be worse than i care to mention, but i harbor to ill intention for her and i have forgiven her. I have had homeless people stay with me and helped them get on their feet more than a few times. I have been incarcerated and have come to know many violent offenders, and i have treated them like any other. You can stand in condemnation of all those that make terrible mistakes or fall to the weaknesses of their flesh all you want, the mentally sick and spiritually dead, but i will love them the same as i love you. I will use wisdom when dealing with dangerous people, but i will not live in condemnation over them as you seem so content to do.
The doctrine of Universal Reconciliation was never deemed Heresy by any counsel. The last Pope was a universalist ... As a matter of fact UR(otherwise known as apokatastasis) was maintained by the Second Vatican Council and by Pope John Paul II and it is promoted in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church and in the post-Vatican II liturgy.


I could continue but i think that i made my point. I am not a catholic, however Universal Salvation was never deemed or declared heresy by the Roman Catholic Church, only the idea that Satan and the fallen angels will also be saved was condemned.

My words are the words spoken by Christ, and though they may not be reasonable to men like yourself who prefer eye for an eye justice to turn the other cheek, that is the way of one who has the love of God in their heart. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your religion? MY words are not hollow sir, every who knows me knows that i walk the walk friend, i do not only talk the talk.

Universal reconciliation was the gospel preached throughout the world, and was believed and taught by the vast majority of Christians during the first 4 centuries, until Rome made Christianity the state religion and made ET the orthodox teaching, and what happened next? The dark ages and the crusades and the inquisitions and the witch hunts.

Universal reconciliation is the true Gospel, ET and Annihilation are the impostor doctrines, and that is an historical fact. Regardless of whether or not you or anyone else can receive it. I believe that one day you will ...

Though i am a sinner and am very weak, i have the love of God for the whole creation, for all people. I am sorry for all the "Christians" who do not experience this indwelling power of the love of God, but God will have mercy on whom he will, and whom he will harden he hardens. I believe that all things will eventually work out according to the will of God, and i trust that though he allows evil to exist in the world and in the heart and minds of most people, he will not allow that evil to ruin or cause his plan and purpose for the salvation of all people to come to not, but will in fact only cause evil to finally magnify the glory of his righteous judgment in his mercy and grace to towards all things.

Do not be deceived concerning this one thing, God WILL have all people to be saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth.


Sleah ...

Your personal testimony is very moving and spoken with great conviction, but it has nothing to do with my original point. The "I feel sorry for you 'cause I'm a much deeper and more caring and more sensitive and loving person than you, and you don't know the trouble I've seen" stuff doesn't work with me. Moreover, you have read all kinds of things into my posts about my beliefs about certain matters that simply are not there.

Your rewrite of Church history doesn't work either. The doctrine of apokatastasis was condemned Council of Constantinople in 543; the belief that all are absolutely saved is contrary to Catholic doctrine and thus heretical.

Pope John Paul II most certainly did NOT affirm apokatastasis, nor did Vatican II. Granted, you may have have picked up some misinformation or disinformation about this matter from a sedevancantist or anti-Catholic website--not exactly the most reliable sources vis a vis Catholic doctrine.

One can certainly hold apokatastasis as a POSSIBILITY and still be an Orthodox (or Heterdox, depending on how you look at the issue) Catholic. I would class myself in that category.

You do sound like a very kind person though, as do some of the UR's who post here, but this does not make you any less deceived.
 
Old 07-02-2010, 02:43 PM
 
Location: New England
32,224 posts, read 21,104,768 times
Reputation: 2274
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Read my following post on page 14...and yes...He loves Israel. That's it. That is the world to Him. That is the Heavens and Earth Isa 51:16...that is His order....That is the underlying and overall theme of the Bible. He loves His firstborn, He came to the House of Israel Matt 15:24, through believing in Him our sins are forgiven 1 John 1:9, and that an Israelite is who believes, regardless of ethinicity or social status 1 Tim 2:4. In order to become Loved by God, in our damned heathen state, is to become an Israelite....but how could you figure this out?...you are blind in UR....you discard the most crucial scriptures, becuase they don't fit in with your views. I accept the themes, and Israel is who He loves, who He came to save, and who He redeemed, and it is only by His grace and mercy, can us heathens, become a part of that tribe.....as it always was meant to be. And it is Israel, Zion, the New Jerusalem, is where that reconciliation is made manifest.

Well if it's about Israel and us heathens are just lucky enough to have some grace and mercy put our way, what do you do with this scripture ?.


by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,.

In otherwords he took the jew and gentile and created one new man out of the two , a new creation man.

You see God has not grafted us into Israel, He's placed us in Christ , and if any man is in Christ he is a new creation .


Just to add to this when Paul said this

"remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

He was basically saying you were not included in anything pertaining to the things of God which were under the Old Covenant , what you have to remember is we are living in a new covenant wherby we are no longer excluded from the things of God but citizens of heaven.
.
 
Old 07-02-2010, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,434,122 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I thought that is what you meant. Again, you are totally missing the mark, as the Scriptures clearly teach that we love God because he loved us first. That is to say we love God because he loved us before we loved him.
WHO DID HE LOVE IN THE BEGINNING?

Israel. You are completely missing the mark Ironmaw. Your themes are all messed up. Mine are consistent with the OT and NT.
Who is John speaking to? Believers!

Quote:
In so many words above you have admitted that you do not believe that God loves his enemies,
Christ commanded us to love our enemies, but what does God say about His enemies?

He kills them for us. His wrath is in them Rom 13:4; Eph 5:6; He abhors them - Psal 5:6
Doesn't sound like love to me.

You are so lost in your view. You put man, in the place of God, like we are equal or something....we are the lost ones...not God.
God can hate, inflict justice, kill, etc...because He is God, we are not.

He does as He pleases. I put my faith in His providence.
 
Old 07-02-2010, 03:10 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,401,731 times
Reputation: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires View Post
Your personal testimony is very moving and spoken with great conviction, but it has nothing to do with my original point. The "I feel sorry for you 'cause I'm a much deeper and more caring and more sensitive and loving person than you, and you don't know the trouble I've seen" stuff doesn't work with me. Moreover, you have read all kinds of things into my posts about my beliefs about certain matters that simply are not there.

Your rewrite of Church history doesn't work either. The doctrine of apokatastasis was condemned Council of Constantinople in 543; the belief that all are absolutely saved is contrary to Catholic doctrine and thus heretical.

Pope John Paul II most certainly did NOT affirm apokatastasis, nor did Vatican II. Granted, you may have have picked up some misinformation or disinformation about this matter from a sedevancantist or anti-Catholic website--not exactly the most reliable sources vis a vis Catholic doctrine.

One can certainly hold apokatastasis as a POSSIBILITY and still be an Orthodox (or Heterdox, depending on how you look at the issue) Catholic. I would class myself in that category.

You do sound like a very kind person though, as do some of the UR's who post here, but this does not make you any less deceived.

I will admit that perhaps i am deceived on this point or on any other for that matter. I realize that in order to grow and learn we must always be willing to reconsider our position according to all the new information we receive as we grow in life. I believed in ET most of my life, for over 30 years, and it was only a few years ago that my conscience began troubling me about some of the things i had been believing and teaching, and the ways i had been feeling about myself and about the world. I believe that is when the spirit began to move in me to open my heart and mind to the truth of UR.

Perhaps God has allowed me to become deceived, for certainly some of us must be deceived concerning this issue. However, i believe it is you and those who believe the way you do that are the ones who are deceived. Whether or not you are able to even admit that you might be wrong, and whether or not you would thereafter be willing to truly search out the truth concerning these things with an open heart and mind, and whether or not God is willing to reveal the truth of these things to you at this time, i cannot say.

But i must allow my conscience to be my guide, and i must believe that the spirit will reveal the truth of these things to me so long as i remain humble, and continue to endeavor to be open to the spirit in order that i might produce the fruits of the spirit, chief among which is love. If one blindly follows any man or any tradition established by men, they will themselves be led into a ditch.

Here is the facts, in order to be the child of our father in heaven, we must be complete as he is complete. That is to say we must love our neighbors as our selves, and we must love our enemies.



Luk 6:27-36
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.



Now i dont know what kind of life you have lived, what you have suffered or how you have failed. I don't know if you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth or not. But i do know that the more one suffers, and the more ones fails in life, the more one is able to identify with the weakness and humanity of others. I do know that is how Christ lived his life, in receiving sinners to himself, and forgiving them their sin, and more than that dying for the very ones who hated him the most and praying for their forgiveness during the time of his death. That is the example of God which i see in Christ.

The only example of accusation which i see in Christ is when he accused the religious elite of his time who believed that they were the elect and that everyone else was damned for ever, the pharisees, for their false religion ... He accused them of standing at the gates of the kingdom refusing admittance to the world ... That is what i see Many Christians proclaiming all over the world, how most of the human race will never be admitted to the kingdom and will be tortured for ever ...

So why did Christ say that the meek shall inherit the earth? Why did he say the the poor are blessed in spirit? Dont you know that most of the third world is Muslim or Hindu? So according to you not only will most of the poor suffer poverty in this life, but they will also suffer eternal torment after they die? How is it that the poor are blessed in spirit again?

You see your tradition and the teachings to which you subscribe and teach appear to me to be the exact opposite of what Christ represented during his time on earth.



So be it ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 07-02-2010 at 03:19 PM..
 
Old 07-02-2010, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,434,122 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Well if it's about Israel and us heathens are just lucky enough to have some grace and mercy put our way, what do you do with this scripture ?.


by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,.

In otherwords he took the jew and gentile and created one new man out of the two , a new creation man.

You see God has not grafted us into Israel, He's placed us in Christ , and if any man is in Christ he is a new creation .


Just to add to this when Paul said this

"remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

He was basically saying you were not included in anything pertaining to the things of God which were under the Old Covenant , what you have to remember is we are living in a new covenant wherby we are no longer excluded from the things of God but citizens of heaven.
.
Romans 11 - I can't believe you are all spinning the scriptures this way?
Stay with the theme....Israel (New Man)....Jew and Gentile (Two)....we are still called Israelites!
 
Old 07-02-2010, 03:29 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,401,731 times
Reputation: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires View Post
Your personal testimony is very moving and spoken with great conviction, but it has nothing to do with my original point. The "I feel sorry for you 'cause I'm a much deeper and more caring and more sensitive and loving person than you, and you don't know the trouble I've seen" stuff doesn't work with me. Moreover, you have read all kinds of things into my posts about my beliefs about certain matters that simply are not there.

Your rewrite of Church history doesn't work either. The doctrine of apokatastasis was condemned Council of Constantinople in 543; the belief that all are absolutely saved is contrary to Catholic doctrine and thus heretical.

Pope John Paul II most certainly did NOT affirm apokatastasis, nor did Vatican II. Granted, you may have have picked up some misinformation or disinformation about this matter from a sedevancantist or anti-Catholic website--not exactly the most reliable sources vis a vis Catholic doctrine.

One can certainly hold apokatastasis as a POSSIBILITY and still be an Orthodox (or Heterdox, depending on how you look at the issue) Catholic. I would class myself in that category.

You do sound like a very kind person though, as do some of the UR's who post here, but this does not make you any less deceived.
Concerning what i posted about the Catholic Church and their stance on UR, and concerning the words of John Paul the second ... I had merely quoted from this site ...

Universal Salvation and the Roman Catholic Church - A Summary and Some Resources

And i quoted directly from the words of John Paul himself, and anyone who reads my post above will see that John Paul plainly referred to the plan of God in Christ being universal salvation for all people.


It was the synod of Constantinople that sought to make the doctrine of Apokatastasis anethema ...

Quote:
In 543, the Synod of Constantinople condemned Apocatastasis as being Anathema, and the Anathema was formally submitted to the Fifth Ecumenical Council of Constantinople (553). Origen of Alexandria's other teachings about the possibility of glorified man falling again also played a role in that condemnation.[9] In fact, most historians today would recognize a distinction between Origen's own teachings (or at least those that have survived), and the theological positions of later "Origenists". Even beliefs long attributed to Origen himself, such as a Platonic version of souls existing before bodies, the possibility of a second fall, are found to be much more nuanced and difficult to pin down in Origen's own writings. The Anathema against apocatastasis, or more accurately, against the belief that hell is not eternal, was not ratified despite support from the Emperor, and it is absent from the Anathemas spoken against Origen at Constantinople II ...


from Apocatastasis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And here is my evidence that during the first four hundred years the gospel of Universal Reconciliation was the belief held and taught by the vast majority of early Christians ...



If you care to challenge these sources please feel free to present your evidences for all to see ...





God bless ...
 
Old 07-02-2010, 03:30 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,771,089 times
Reputation: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Who does He love?

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

The Law:

Deut 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he [is] God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Fulfilled Law:

Matt 5:17 I think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Psal 100:1-6 Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all ye lands. Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing. Know ye that the LORD he [is] God: [it is] he [that] hath made us, and not we ourselves; [we are] his people, and the sheep of his pasture. Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, [and] into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, [and] bless his name For the LORD [is] good; his mercy [is] everlasting; and his truth [endureth] to all generations.

Now watch here:

Psalm 103:17 But the mercy of the LORD [is] from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children; To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.

1 Cor 8:3 if any man love God, the same is known of God.

If any man love God, and is thereby influenced to love his neighbor, the same is known of God in loving him.

1 John 4:19 speaks directly to Christians, so the fact that its audience is not, is not the message and premise, but the fact is that the message is to Christians, about Christians and the love that God shows to those who believe in Him. It really ails me when I see the message ripped from its context to support the Universal Salvation lie.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

1 John 5:2-5 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

I can stop here.....as it seems pretty clear that God's love is directed yes to the world, but is not MADE MANIFEST in US until we believe in Christ.
That is the source of His love, through Christ, and through Christ, we are loved.



Why are you still doing this? Infusing 1 Tim 2:4 into the mix?
When are you people going to get that THELO - Desire/wants/will has nothing to do with something that God is going to decree? NOTHING.
Classic eisegesis.



God killed everyone on earth except for Noah, God had many people killed throught the OT times. God will send people to hell for rejecting His Son.

It is His nature for not following His precepts. He said so Himself.

The Lost is the Lost Sheep, the Lost House of Israel. And through the revelation of epistles to that lost House, comprises of Jew and Gentile in Covenant with God, to receive the blessings of God's love through Christ. You cannot be an Israelite and not love Christ.

Christ died for the Israelite. The whole purpose of the gospel, is to bring people into the fold.

Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Rev 21:1-2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

The themes never change. Israel is the chosen, and to believe in Christ, makes you an Israelite.
It's really kind of funny how you posted all those verses and NONE of them said that God doesn't love everyone. NONE. Were you hoping people would not want to take time to read them and assume they said what you intended?


You asked:

Why are you still doing this? Infusing 1 Tim 2:4 into the mix?

Because God's desire is for all to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth. And because you said God would do what pleases Him, so I said everyone being saved pleases Him.
 
Old 07-02-2010, 03:32 PM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,876,458 times
Reputation: 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I will admit that perhaps i am deceived on this point or on any other for that matter. I realize that in order to grow and learn we must always be willing to reconsider our position according to all the new information we receive as we grow in life. I believed in ET most of my life, for over 30 years, and it was only a few years ago that my conscience began troubling me about some of the things i had been believing and teaching, and the ways i had been feeling about myself and about the world. I believe that is when the spirit began to move in me to open my heart and mind to the truth of UR.

Perhaps God has allowed me to become deceived, for certainly some of us must be deceived concerning this issue. However, i believe it is you and those who believe the way you do that are the ones who are deceived. Whether or not you are able to even admit that you might be wrong, and whether or not you would thereafter be willing to truly search out the truth concerning these things with an open heart and mind, and whether or not God is willing to reveal the truth of these things to you at this time, i cannot say.

But i must allow my conscience to be my guide, and i must believe that the spirit will reveal the truth of these things to me so long as i remain humble, and continue to endeavor to be open to the spirit in order that i might produce the fruits of the spirit, chief among which is love. If one blindly follows any man or any tradition established by men, they will themselves be led into a ditch.

Here is the facts, in order to be the child of our father in heaven, we must be complete as he is complete. That is to say we must love our neighbors as our selves, and we must love our enemies.



Luk 6:27-36
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.



Now i dont know what kind of life you have lived, what you have suffered or how you have failed. I don't know if you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth or not. But i do know that the more one suffers, and the more ones fails in life, the more one is able to identify with the weakness and humanity of others. I do know that is how Christ lived his life, in receiving sinners to himself, and forgiving them their sin, and more than that dying for the very ones who hated him the most and praying for their forgiveness during the time of his death. That is the example of God which i see in Christ.

The only example of accusation which i see in Christ is when he accused the religious elite of his time who believed that they were the elect and that everyone else was damned for ever, the pharisees, for their false religion ... He accused them of standing at the gates of the kingdom refusing admittance to the world ... That is what i see Many Christians proclaiming all over the world, how most of the human race will never be admitted to the kingdom and will be tortured for ever ...

So why did Christ say that the meek shall inherit the earth? Why did he say the the poor are blessed in spirit? Dont you know that most of the third world is Muslim or Hindu? So according to you not only will most of the poor suffer poverty in this life, but they will also suffer eternal torment after they die? How is it that the poor are blessed in spirit again?

You see your tradition and the teachings to which you subscribe and teach appear to me to be the exact opposite of what Christ represented during his time on earth.



So be it ...
....most of the third world is Muslim or Hindu...So according to you not only will most of the poor suffer poverty in this life, but they will also suffer eternal torment after they die? How is it that the poor are blessed in spirit again?



You have gone completely off the rails here -- I have said no such thing nor do I think any such thing. Moreover, I suspect you have many misconceptions about what Catholicism actually teaches. Many here do, even those who appear to be otherwise "learned."

Otherwise, a pretty good post.

Blessings
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