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Old 07-03-2010, 03:40 AM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,876,583 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I am sorry if i misrepresented what you believe, i realize that there are divergent schools of thought even in the catholic church. I know that Eternal Hell is a catholic doctrine, though some might believe otherwise, as i believe John Paul II did ...

Perhaps i simply do not understand why you refute UR, or what stance you take which is contrary to it? Do you believe in Annihilation or conditional immortality?

Do you believe that all who die before believing on Christ will be eternally damned or not?

Maybe you would help me to understand what in fact you do believe concerning this issue?




Thank you for your time ...
My beliefs are in line with what the Catholic Church teaches. I am cut and pasting below a response I wrote on another thread asking about the Catholic view of sainthood. It's not 100% on point, but it should give you a basic idea about the Catholic Church's teachings on the Four Last Things (Death, Judgment, Heaven, Hell).

To be 100% clear--I believe that those who do not repent before the moment of death will get "no second chance." The Bible is clear that Our Merciful Lord and Saviour will one day return as a Fierce Judge. (Matthew 7:23, Rev 22:11). There will be NO MARRIAGE between the sheep and the goats on the Day of the Lord--or at any time thereafter. God made us all in His image and likeness; He did not make robots. With that said, under Catholic teaching, only God knows with certainty whether anyone is in Hell.

Here is a useful discussion in this regard:

CatholicDestination.com - Articles - Becoming Catholic - Are Only Catholics Going to Heaven? Eric Sammons


Further, see paragraphs 839-848 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, The Church and non-Christians :

Quote:
This affirmation [no salvation outside the Church] is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience -- those too may achieve eternal salvation.

"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men" (CCC 847-848).

Read more....

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic

Some other interesting discussions:

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9907chap.asp

InsideCatholic.com - Can Non-Catholics Be Saved? (http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=59&Itemi d=12 - broken link)

Here is a fairly detailed overview of the historical development of the doctrine extra ecclesiam nulla salus (Latin for "outside the Church, no salvation"):

Sept/Oct 1998 - Feature - "Can Outsiders Be Insiders?" (http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/2.5/coverstory.html - broken link)

As regards the second question, as I stated, I am not a theologian or by any means an expert in Catholic teaching, but I have found a brief discussion of this at the "Catholic Answers website" -- whilst it appears to be a theological opinion and not a statement of Catholic dogma, it does sound reasonable to me:

Quote:
It is theoretically possible that the Church could canonize a non-Catholic, because canonization is simply an official acknowledgment that a particular person is in heaven. But to date the Church has done so only with its own members. This is because one of the purposes of canonization is to set forth for Catholics a model of Catholic Christian holiness.

Catholic Answers: This Rock: Quick Questions: Canonization

On the canonization process in general (often a lengthy one):

Quote:
The Catholic Church canonizes or beatifies only those whose lives have been marked by the exercise of heroic virtue, and only after this has been proved by common repute for sanctity and by conclusive arguments.
Read more....

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Beatification and Canonization

This should be enough to get you started.

Last edited by june 7th; 07-03-2010 at 10:21 AM.. Reason: Only "mod cuts" are done in red. Members are asked to please not post in 'red.' Thanks

 
Old 07-03-2010, 04:41 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,288,413 times
Reputation: 869
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I have shown countless scriptures that prove you wrong. You bring one...and it doesn't even imply what you are trying to present. It is obvious, Paul is quoting their poet in the previous verse, and since Paul is addressing the topic of the UNKNOWN GOD, as they worship many gods the culture he speaks to, what a wonderful way to bring together the context of their UNKNOWN GOD and liken it with the GOd of Abraham. This is a rather beautiful area of the scripture, however, you toy with it. to promote your Universal Salvation theme, where in it is quite obvious, as to what Paul is trying to have his listeners realize. That through their repentance, they will be truly the children of God. Stop staring at one verse herefornow, and read the entire message.
This is where all of you fail terribly.

One of the many commentaries, that all of the UR crowd, from what it appears, reject on a regular basis...what a shame:

A word for word, of an astronomical poem of Aratus, a Greek countryman of the apostle, and his predecessor by about three centuries. But, as he hints, the same sentiment is to be found in other Greek poets. They meant it doubtless in a pantheistic sense; but the truth which it expresses the apostle turns to his own purpose--to teach a pure, personal, spiritual Theism. (Probably during his quiet retreat at Tarsus. Act 9:30 , revolving his special vocation to the Gentiles he gave himself to the study of so much Greek literature as might be turned to Christian account in his future work. Hence this and his other quotations from the Greek poets, 1Cr 15:33 Tts 1:12 ). All men every where to repent--(compare Col 1:6, 23 Tts 1:11 ) --a tacit allusion to the narrow precincts of favored Judaism, within which immediate and entire repentance was ever urged. The word "repentance" is here used (as in Luk 13:3, 5 15:10 ) in its most comprehensive sense of "repentance unto life."



Then you contradict yourself...LOL...this is what we deal with on a regular basis with your crowd. You fail again. Stop corrupting His word please.



I will take Christ's word over yours....anyday.
Hi Sciotamicks,
(I'm responding to your reply, but I'm actually responding to everyone, so don't take this post "personally!")

I think it might be important to keep in mind a few of things:

1) because something is not "obvious" to Joe Reader on the street, doesn't mean that it's not in line with the Spirit of God.
2) it's the Spirit that we need to hear, not simply the letter.
3) the Spirit wrote the letter. The letter cannot give you the Spirit.
4) the Pharisees killed Jesus Christ because He wasn't "in the scriptures." The perfect example of Spirit vs. flesh/letter.
5) Paul and the other apostles/disciples/early church in the book of Acts never preached about hell.
6) I can believe #2 above simply because of my OP: while I believed in hell/annihilation, I saw myself taking on an evermore critical, judging and bitter spirit. And, therefore,
7) If your doctrine conflicts with what's in your heart, there's something wrong.

Perhaps some people are able to preach hell/annihilation with Love in their hearts.
I tried for a long time, and then the Lord allowed me to confess what I saw was happening in my heart.

Just my thoughts for now..

Blessings to you,
brian
 
Old 07-03-2010, 04:57 AM
 
5,499 posts, read 4,573,974 times
Reputation: 5149
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi Sciotamicks,
(I'm responding to your reply, but I'm actually responding to everyone, so don't take this post "personally!")

I think it might be important to keep in mind a few of things:

1) because something is not "obvious" to Joe Reader on the street, doesn't mean that it's not in line with the Spirit of God.
2) it's the Spirit that we need to hear, not simply the letter.
3) the Spirit wrote the letter. The letter cannot give you the Spirit.
4) the Pharisees killed Jesus Christ because He wasn't "in the scriptures." The perfect example of Spirit vs. flesh/letter.
5) Paul and the other apostles/disciples/early church in the book of Acts never preached about hell.
6) I can believe #2 above simply because of my OP: while I believed in hell/annihilation, I saw myself taking on an evermore critical, judging and bitter spirit. And, therefore,
7) If your doctrine conflicts with what's in your heart, there's something wrong.

Perhaps some people are able to preach hell/annihilation with Love in their hearts.
I tried for a long time, and then the Lord allowed me to confess what I saw was happening in my heart.

Just my thoughts for now..

Blessings to you,
brian
Brian, I'm with you except for number four. They did read about the Messiah in the scripture...they just didn't believe he would come from Nazareth and would be opposing their "doctrine" to their faces...

God Bless you always my friend...
 
Old 07-03-2010, 05:42 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,262,952 times
Reputation: 17788
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
What would happen if we just "forgot" about the evil that others do to us?

Blessings,
brian
Reading through this thread and seeing ones post through out this forum it is pretty obvious one has not forgotten !!

The differences is one has just transfered the hate from that "the evil that others do to us," from one belief into another belief......

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post

As long as I believe that there is "judgment" and "hell" to pay to unbelievers (the type typically preached), I truly and honestly cannot "love my neighbor." I simply can't do it. I find myself hating, despising, judging and criticizing others.


Blessings to all,
brian
AND........

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi Finn,
I can answer you with BHFT's post earlier, she hit it on the head:
"the only way someone can believe in eternal torment and also believe God is fair and just, is to believe they deserve it."
Or, since I was surrounding myself with people who were telling me that it was just and holy and right to send "others" to hell, or annihilate them, I began to feel hate towards those people. "Since they do such-and-such, they deserve hell." This was my line of thinking, and there is hate in that. I could feel it.And yet, I knew that it was wrong, and I felt bad inside for thinking things that I knew were not pleasing to the Lord. My own experiences in the Spirit were ones of joy, love and goodness. Just the opposite!
And I suppose I also began to hate myself, in a way, since I was hating others and knowing that it was wrong.

Does that help any?

Blessings to you,
brian
AND............

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Yes, I was born again, or regenerated, before I began attending the groups I mentioned earlier.
The joy I felt at learning of a God of Love was "quenched" by these teachings of hell/annihilation. And although I knew on a "rational level" that I didn't agree with this type of preaching (because it was so contrary to my own experiences in the Spirit), I was nevertheless starting to see something else grow in me, which was hate.
They told me to "hate sin, but not the sinner." But I saw hate in them towards others, I felt it in me, and the "unbelievers" could see it, too. (But, of course, they were "wrong" because they were "lost heathen.")

Blessings,
brian
AND.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi JesseJames!
Well, the answer you will get depends on who you ask.
Someone who believes in hellfire will tell you that, yes, you actually ARE an abomination unto the Lord, unless you get your act together. He (God) loves you, but not at the moment. (And even if you could get your act together, you also have to believe all the right doctrine, otherwise you'll be kicked out again.)

Others here may tell you that God loves you and that He created you just the way you are. That He has a special path for you, just like everyone else.

Personally, I'm glad you're here, no matter how you're made! We're ALL different!

Blessings to you,
brian
These are just a few of what has been posted in this forum.......

Brian, you have never stop hating really....... you have just switch your hate from one belief (Christian) to placing that hate in another (UR).

NO person or a group of people, or even a teaching (hell) makes us hate, it is a choice to hate that an individual makes on their own !!! And blaming it on others, or whatever is just shifting the responsibility off of ourselves !!!

By turning to Universalism Reconciliation it has given your hate a reason to still survive with out the guilt !!! Universalism (false teaching) is disguising, masking ones hate toward others..... as you can see in the last post the sarcasm about those who believe the teaching of God's word about hell which truly had nothing to do with the OP's question.

Whatever happen back then is still there..... not "FORGOTTEN !!"
This statement you made in your post kind of reveals it......
"Someone who believes in hellfire will tell you that, yes, you actually ARE an abomination unto the Lord, unless you get your act together. He (God) loves you, but not at the moment. (And even if you could get your act together, you also have to believe all the right doctrine, otherwise you'll be kicked out again." ......

It sounds like there was a possibility of one was threaten they were a abomination if they did not get their act together, and was being kicked out ......

The truth is that Universalism is just giving one a false sense of peace !! But it is still there and one can pick it up in reading your post.... especially the one above !!!

You have went from hating the unbeliever to hating those who believe the teaching in God's written word about hell..... period !!!
 
Old 07-03-2010, 05:48 AM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,876,583 times
Reputation: 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post

Brian, you have never stop hating really....... you have just switch your hate from one belief (Christian) to placing that hate in another (UR).

You have went from hating the unbeliever to hating those who believe the teaching in God's written word about hell..... period !!!


Too bad I can't rep you, Sister.
 
Old 07-03-2010, 05:54 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,288,413 times
Reputation: 869
Latte'Chic,
I don't hate you, neither the "unbelievers," neither anyone else here. My hate was what I had for unbelievers while I believed in ET. Ok?
I don't hate people who espouse ET doctrine; I hate their doctrine and how it affects others.

Blessings to you,
brian
 
Old 07-03-2010, 06:01 AM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,876,583 times
Reputation: 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Latte'Chic,
I don't hate you, neither the "unbelievers," neither anyone else here. My hate was what I had for unbelievers while I believed in ET. Ok?
I don't hate people who espouse ET doctrine; I hate their doctrine and how it affects others.

Blessings to you,
brian
Based on what I have read from you on this thread, Brian, that claim is about as credible as someone who says "I am a committed Vegetarian" whilst chomping happily on a Big Mac.
 
Old 07-03-2010, 06:19 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,262,952 times
Reputation: 17788
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Latte'Chic,
I don't hate you, neither the "unbelievers," neither anyone else here. My hate was what I had for unbelievers while I believed in ET. Ok?
I don't hate people who espouse ET doctrine; I hate their doctrine and how it affects others.

Blessings to you,
brian
My goodness Brian..... this has nothing to do with you hating me, it's about you hating regardless if it is ET or whatever. That manipulation won't work with me with that statement.
All I have to say is may God break through somehow, someway that hurt that caused a heart to harden so hard with hate and one is clinging so dearly too, justifying and using ET now to keep denying the truth of God's precious word !!!

It is true that and will happen...... truth WILL be revealed to you one day and do hope one chooses repentance of the unforgotten, and un-forgiveness !!
I truly mean that with all my heart !!!
 
Old 07-03-2010, 07:45 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,288,413 times
Reputation: 869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post
My goodness Brian..... this has nothing to do with you hating me, it's about you hating regardless if it is ET or whatever. That manipulation won't work with me with that statement.
All I have to say is may God break through somehow, someway that hurt that caused a heart to harden so hard with hate and one is clinging so dearly too, justifying and using ET now to keep denying the truth of God's precious word !!!

It is true that and will happen...... truth WILL be revealed to you one day and do hope one chooses repentance of the unforgotten, and un-forgiveness !!
I truly mean that with all my heart !!!
Latte'Chic,
What I can tell you with certainty, is that the Christian ET groups I frequented told me that God hates unbelievers, and since we all wanted to "be Godly," we were hating them, too. It's very simple.

The message of reconciliation of all souls to God, on the other hand, has brought great joy to my heart, and I am healing from the condemnation doctrines that I used to drink up so readily as "the mind of Christ."

I hope others will be able to hear this message, too.
Obviously none of us is perfect yet. If I'm hating anyone today, I certainly don't want to! May the Lord have mercy on us always!

Blessings to you,
brian
 
Old 07-03-2010, 07:50 AM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,876,583 times
Reputation: 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Latte'Chic,
What I can tell you with certainty, is that the Christian ET groups I frequented told me that God hates unbelievers, and since we all wanted to "be Godly," we were hating them, too. It's very simple.

The message of reconciliation of all souls to God, on the other hand, has brought great joy to my heart, and I am healing from the condemnation doctrines that I used to drink up so readily as "the mind of Christ."

I hope others will be able to hear this message, too.
Obviously none of us is perfect yet. If I'm hating anyone today, I certainly don't want to! May the Lord have mercy on us always!

Blessings to you,
brian
Brian,

That sounds more like a cult than a sound Christian Church. It looks like it put some strange ideas into your head about what most Christians actually believe.

Catholics have a prayer that goes as follows:

Oh my Jesus forgive us our sins
and save us from the fires of Hell;
Lead all souls to Heaven
Especially those most in need of Thy mercy.

Blessings
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