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Old 07-03-2010, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,435,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by python87 View Post
I don't really know if UR is step forward or back, but if there is a wicked idea on this world it is certainly one that says that only those who accept Jesus in this life are going to be saved (and I know that many Evangelicals believe that). Maybe UR goes soft on evil (there will be punishments for the wicked but not forever), but this mainstream idea throws concept of good and evil out of the window altogether. I mean, Hitler might be in hell, but so is every Jew who died in holocaust. So why was Hitler wrong in killing Jews? Who the hell knows.

What I don't understand is why is UR totally unacceptable, while Accept Jesus While You Are Alive is?
Torment is torment, whether it be temporal or eternal, UR and ET believe both, and both must accept that God inflicts suffering on those who disobey. Either way you look at it, punishment is certain.

Now the question is this:

If God is unchanging, and He has destroyed many people in the past, why is it so inconceivable for Him to send those to Hell that don't accept His son as their saviour?

God wiped out the human race except for Noah and his family correct?
Why is it so inconceivable that God would wipe out the entire human race again except for those that put their faith in His Son?

The reconcilaiton is in Christ, and that reconciliaiton is manifest through Christ, and ONLY upon confession to His Lordship and Savior, are we are granted the gift of reconciliation which becomes manifested in us as a new creation, a new man.

Man is dead in his sins, without Christ. And to have Christ in you, you must put to death the old man with the new man....and be resurrected unto life. Pretty clear, yet UR defies this neccessity.

 
Old 07-03-2010, 12:28 PM
 
159 posts, read 150,121 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Torment is torment, whether it be temporal or eternal, UR and ET believe both, and both must accept that God inflicts suffering on those who disobey. Either way you look at it, punishment is certain.
Going to hell because you never heard of Christ or only superficially heard is hardly disobedience. There aren't that many people in what can be in any way considered to be direct rebellion. Also many URers I see here believe that severity and duration of punishment depends a lot on how good or bad you where during life, so it has something to do with Justice. Unlike Accept Jesus During This Life where you are punished forever regardless of anything else you may have done.

Quote:
If God is unchanging, and He has destroyed many people in the past, why is it so inconceivable for Him to send those to Hell that don't accept His son as their saviour?
Killing something to build something else (because staggering corruption of old blocks any possibility of progress) is hardly the same as torturing people forever without purpose at all.

Quote:
God wiped out the human race except for Noah and his family correct?
same as above. Not to mention that story of flood could not possibly be literal.
Quote:
Why is it so inconceivable that God would wipe out the entire human race again except for those that put their faith in His Son?
Why is it so inconceivable that God (who you said had wiped entire peoples at some points, and plans to torture forever almost everyone regardless of how good they were) would lie to people to make them think, say, that Jesus is savior? Why wouldn't God (or devil) trick Jesus into thinking he is his son? You think God will squash almost everyone as if they were bugs, but you are his child? Now, that's optimistic.

Quote:
The reconcilaiton is in Christ, and that reconciliaiton is manifest through Christ, and ONLY upon confession to His Lordship and Savior, are we are granted the gift of reconciliation which becomes manifested in us as a new creation, a new man.

Man is dead in his sins, without Christ. And to have Christ in you, you must put to death the old man with the new man....and be resurrected unto life. Pretty clear, yet UR defies this neccessity.
How do you know it isn't devil telling you to say that? A lot of Christian persecutions of Jews happened pretty much because Christians thought Jews are going to hell anyway. See 'On Jews and Their Lies' by Martin Luther for details.

And, by the way, URers I see here do not deny necessity of accepting Christ. They merely insist that curtain doesn't fall at death, and that, given enough time, everyone will come to their senses and accept Jesus. Do not misrepresent position of your opponent.

Last edited by python87; 07-03-2010 at 01:05 PM..
 
Old 07-03-2010, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,762,472 times
Reputation: 1590
Quote:
Originally Posted by python87 View Post
I don't really know if UR is step forward or back, but if there is a wicked idea on this world it is certainly one that says that only those who accept Jesus in this life are going to be saved (and I know that many Evangelicals believe that). Maybe UR goes soft on evil (there will be punishments for the wicked but not forever), but this mainstream idea throws concept of good and evil out of the window altogether. I mean, Hitler might be in hell, but so is every Jew who died in holocaust. So why was Hitler wrong in killing Jews? Who the hell knows.

What I don't understand is why is UR totally unacceptable, while Accept Jesus While You Are Alive is?
There you go again using your brain freely, Python. That is against some people's rules you know! I already read your rebuttal to Sciomatic's objections. Well done
 
Old 07-03-2010, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,435,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by python87 View Post
Going to hell because you never heard of Christ or only superficially heard is hardly disobedience. There aren't that many people in what can be in any way considered to be direct rebellion.
All are condemend and without excuse. The scripture tells me that, so I accept it. It is called faith in the word of my God.

Quote:
Killing something to build something else (because corruption of old blocks progress) is hardly the same as torturing people forever without purpose at all.
It's still killing...with actual pain involved, something far different than what a disembodied soul will experince in Hell.
Secondly, it is very obvious by this statement that you have no clue as to what you are tlaking about in regards to 1 Cor 15.

Quote:
same as above. Not to mention that story of flood could not possibly be literal.
Again, the Bible details a historical flood, therefore, I accept it.

Quote:
Why is it so inconceivable that God (who you said had wiped entire peoples at some points, and plans to torture forever almost everyone regardless of how good they were) would lie to people to make them think, say, that Jesus is savior? Why wouldn't God (or devil) trick Jesus into thinking he is his son? You think God will squash almost everyone as if they were bugs, but you are his child? Now, that's optimistic.
Again, because we are dead without Christ. We cannot even go near the presence of God without CHrist's blood on us. Simple.

Quote:
How do you know it isn't devil telling you to say that?
I am a full preterist. The devil isn't saying anything to me, it is my sin nature that does, and I die daily in that 1 Cor 15

Quote:
A lot of Christian persecutions of Jews happened pretty much because Christians thought Jews are going to hell anyway. See 'On Jews and Their Lies' by Martin Luther for details.
There will always be war and sin and death. Those things can be overcome in Christ. The parallels of the kingdom of Israel is very instructive. There were several times in covenant history when the tribes of Israel had violent disagreements amongst themselves. Likewise, it should not surprise us that there have been periods in Chruch history when factions set themselves against each other within the kingdom of God. There has been plenty of infighting within the Church over the centuries. To much I think.

The Bible not only records disagreements among God's people, it also records the effects of infighting. Jesus taught that a kingdom divided against itself is a kingdom that cannot stand. When Israel divided into two separate kingdoms, she became very weak. There is much correlation in historical Israel, with the church now. Division within the body of CHrist leads to instability. Full Preterism solves this. It not only dissolves the division, it eliminates Universalism. And that is why you will never convince me that the apostles truly taught UR. Because they didn't. They taught that Christ's Parousia was "about to come" - Mello - Right around the corner, within such proximity you could smell it! So no, according to my views, the apostles were full preterists.

It isn't even in futurism. It is of the flesh, rooted in the carnal desire of mankind inability to wrap its mind around a faith centered heart and trust that God will stay true to His word. It changes the framework of what a covenant stands for, and removes the curses and leaves only the blessings, and applies it to everyone reagrdless of faith. UR cannot comprehend God in faith, because it cannot even comprehend it's own futility in the flesh. It believes that man's heart and mind is like God's.
It believes that man is god.

Quote:
And, by the way, URers I see here do not deny necessity of accepting Christ. They merely insist that curtain doesn't stop at death, and that, given enough time, everyone will come to their senses and accept Jesus. Do not misrepresent position of your opponent.
I know it does, and like I said before, it denies the perserverance of the saints. It is pointless to live like one. Their view of the afterlife is skewed and blended with Pagan philosophies. Down to their eisegesis.

Tell that to JTB and St. Paul.
 
Old 07-03-2010, 01:39 PM
 
159 posts, read 150,121 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
All are condemend and without excuse. The scripture tells me that, so I accept it. It is called faith in the word of my God.
Quote:
Again, the Bible details a historical flood, therefore, I accept it.
Quote:
Again, because we are dead without Christ. We cannot even go near the presence of God without CHrist's blood on us. Simple.
So if I were a Devil, all I had to do is write a few scriptures and you guys would follow that no matter how contradictory to reason? Sounds like an easy job. You can see plainly that there are plenty of people who are neither in deliberate disobedience nor believers and you chose to disregard plainly seen and assume that there are only two groups. Incredible.



Quote:
It's still killing...with actual pain involved, something far different than what a disembodied soul will experince in Hell.
Yes but it's not nearly on the same level. If you, say, kill an animal because you are hungry that's not the same as killing it for fun. Also killing is not the same as torturing... forever.

Quote:
Secondly, it is very obvious by this statement that you have no clue as to what you are tlaking about in regards to 1 Cor 15.
I am probably not as knowledgeable of Bible as you are but I do know certain things .This whole salvation thing is not nearly as clear-cut as everyone pretends. There are parts of the Bible (Sheep and Goats parable in Matthew) that imply that salvation is by works, then there are verses saying that you can go to heaven if someone else from your family believes in Jesus (1 Corinthians 7:14 ). Why are those verses taken figuratively and "accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior" verses literary?


Quote:
And that is why you will never convince me that the apostles truly taught UR. Because they didn't.
I am not trying to convince you of any such thing. I am not even Christian, and I don't believe in UR (although UR makes more sense to me than ET). I do think there is God however. What we are discussing here is basic credibility of certain ideas. For example, can a certain text (or its interpretation) contradict everything that is reasonable and Just and still be a word of God? What is exactly criteria for a word of God and how can we know when we see it?

You never answered my question: why was Hitler wrong in killing Jews when both he and Jews he killed are in hell forever? If your theology can't see any difference between non-believing dictator and his non-believing (but still decent) victims, then it is worse than useless. So, God gave us sense of right and wrong but his standards somehow have nothing to do with right and wrong?

Last edited by python87; 07-03-2010 at 02:20 PM..
 
Old 07-03-2010, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,289,854 times
Reputation: 869
Latte'Chic,
Your post was very long, so please forgive me if I don't respond to everything.

What does stick out to me in your post is the idea that UR is a devilish doctrine which appeals to the flesh and is selfish.
Please clarify this for me, because it makes no sense at all.

You also state that God saving all souls is an affront on His righteousness. I see it as completely the opposite. Only GOD could do something so wonderful as to save all His creatures. Man likes to divide. Just look at how many denominations there are in Christianity. It is an innate part of man's fallen nature to condemn, separate, argue, hate, judge.

I have been a partaker of both ET and UR. The peace I feel today as I believe in the reconcilation of all things to God, may seem to you a "false peace," but to me it's very real. It has set me free from the condemning and hatred towards unbelievers that I could not shake while I was believing in ET.
Again, maybe you are able to love others while you tell them they are going to hell. I cannot. That's the truth. I have lived it for years.

You seem to believe that believing that God is the savior of all, somehow will draw you away from Him, or lead you to hell. My experience has been that I now have a joy complete in me that I didn't have before.

Blessings to you also,
brian
 
Old 07-03-2010, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,491,854 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I am a full preterist. Full Preterism solves this.
Do you really want to go there?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
It believes that man is god.

I don't know of any URs who believe that man is God. URs believe humanity is corrupt and only Christ, who was without sin, can bring us into harmony with God.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Their view of the afterlife is skewed and blended with Pagan philosophies.

Paganism is rampant in Christianity. My mother, who WAS a die-hard evangelical argued with the church over this because she could easily see how much paganism was stamped all over tradition. She was well-liked. (NOT)

Last edited by herefornow; 07-03-2010 at 03:13 PM..
 
Old 07-03-2010, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,435,725 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by python87 View Post
So if I were a Devil, all I had to do is write a few scriptures and you guys would follow that no matter how contradictory to reason? Sounds like an easy job.
LOL..reason......this is where you fail....reason was the original sin, faith has littel to do with reason...so...no you stand corrected.

Quote:
You can see plainly that there are plenty of people who are neither in deliberate disobedience nor believers and you chose to disregard plainly seen and assume that there are only two groups. Incredible.
Does this matter? Does it matter that everyone is not in deliberate disobedience? The scriptures say we were born dosobedient. WE ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE. Period. There are two groups....dead and alive.

Quote:
Yes but it's not nearly on the same level.
Of course....however, it is still an act of violence. Hell, is not violence, but deserved punishment.

Quote:
I am not as knowledgeable of Bible as you are but I do know certain things
I see that.

Quote:
This whole salvation thing is not nearly as clear-cut as everyone pretends.
Oh yes it is.

Quote:
There are parts of the Bible (Sheep and Goats parable in Matthew) that imply that salvation is by works
Under the Old Covenant yes....secondly the Sheep and the Goats deal with Israel, the resurrection of the dead...themes I believe you cannot grasp...so it is pointless, unless you would like to know more.

Quote:
then there are verses saying that you can go to heaven if someone else from your family believes in Jesus (1 Corinthians 7:14 )
No, that says nothing of the sort. God can be glorified in such a marriage, and do a work through the believing spouse to draw the unbelieving spouse to Jesus Christ. Sanctified, in this context and grammatical usage, does not mean that the unbelieving spouse is saved just by being married to a Christian. It simply means that they are set apart for a special working in their lives by the Holy Spirit, by virtue of being so close to someone who is a Christian.

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I am not trying to convince you of any such thing.
You can't.

Quote:
I am not even Christian
I know..the more reason why you need to understand that UR is a lie.

Quote:
I do think there is God however.
That's good. He will reveal himself to you I feel in His time, not yours.

Quote:
What we are discussing here is basic credibility of certain ideas.
Credibiltiy? That is the Holy Sprit's job. Mine is to unite the church.

Quote:
For example, can a certain text contradict everything that is reasonable and still be a word of God?
The scriptures do not contradict themeselves. Try me in any verse.
I will show that they don't.

Quote:
What is exactly criteria for a word of God and how can we know when we see it?
It's alive.
 
Old 07-03-2010, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,435,725 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Do you really want to go there?
Anytime.

Quote:
I don't know of any URs who believe that man is God. URs believe humanity is corrupt and only Christ, who was without sin, can bring us into harmony with God.
UR places man's ideas and imposes them onto God's. Therefore, he thinks he is God. UR believes that man can accept Christ after he has died. LIE.

Quote:
Paganism is rampant in Christianity. My mother, who WAS a die-hard evangelical argued with the church over this because she could easily see how much paganism was stamped all over tradition. She was well-liked.
Good for her. I am sure she helped the plight against the UR heresy, directly or indirectly. Kudos to her.

UR is pagan.
 
Old 07-03-2010, 02:33 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,491,854 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Anytime.
Okay. I'll get my stuff up and running. But you could not my questions, and neither could your friends, last times we got into this.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
UR places man's ideas and imposes them onto God's. Therefore, he thinks he is God. UR believes that man can accept Christ after he has died. LIE.
URs study the Bible just like all the million different warring denominations, sciotamicks. You will have to say that those denominations think they are God, too, if you are basing this on being wrong according to you and your teachers.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Good for her. I am sure she helped the plight against the UR heresy, directly or indirectly. Kudos to her. UR is pagan.
Well, she is dead now. She died a few months ago. But do you know what? Do you know why I am so angry at tradition? I'll tell you. Because it lies. And it lies. And it lies. And it affected my mother to the point that she lived a hellish life down here, and it affected every single person around her, which is why I started studying, and studying, and studying, and studying some more. I KNOW tradition lies. Without a doubt left in my aching heart.

She did not help anybody or anything. She left the paganized church system and kept to herself living a paranoid and angry life. She did not know about UR, and she was scared to die. She finally did end up dying shortly after I told her about hell a few months ago. My brother told me something she would never tell me. She was scared to die. And she had been holding on for a LONG time, horribly miserable and in a lot of pain. I told her in February that tradition is a horrible thing and hell is the most satanic lie ever told to the human race. I also mentioned UR and she didn't get angry or confused. She actually sounded interested, which was rather shocking.

Anyway, she finally managed to stutter that one of her evangelical preachers she used to listen to did not believe in hell (He KNEW what a horribly stupid translated word "HELL" is), but he knew if he said anything he would get kicked to the curb, basically. And I wonder how many other doctrines the preachers and teachers know to be wrong, or at least somewhat faulty, and don't say anything.

I will keep fighting the good fight with every last cell in my aching body.

Last edited by herefornow; 07-03-2010 at 03:19 PM..
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