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Old 07-03-2010, 02:43 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,497,011 times
Reputation: 438

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Torment is torment, whether it be temporal or eternal, UR and ET believe both, and both must accept that God inflicts suffering on those who disobey. Either way you look at it, punishment is certain.

Now the question is this:

If God is unchanging, and He has destroyed many people in the past, why is it so inconceivable for Him to send those to Hell that don't accept His son as their saviour?

God wiped out the human race except for Noah and his family correct?
Why is it so inconceivable that God would wipe out the entire human race again except for those that put their faith in His Son?

The reconcilaiton is in Christ, and that reconciliaiton is manifest through Christ, and ONLY upon confession to His Lordship and Savior, are we are granted the gift of reconciliation which becomes manifested in us as a new creation, a new man.

Man is dead in his sins, without Christ. And to have Christ in you, you must put to death the old man with the new man....and be resurrected unto life. Pretty clear, yet UR defies this neccessity.

Sciotamicks, you seem rather hell-bent on thinking of a God who only destroys. He DESTROYS and he makes ALIVE! I Samuel 2:6. "The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up.

And whatever this verse means exactly (preachers argue over this one, of course) it is quite interesting any way you look at it. I Peter 3:19. So he went and preached to the spirits in prison--

Whether that is talking about fallen spirits (RECONCILING things in heaven~~~~Colossians 1:20) or people spirits, I don't know.

Last edited by herefornow; 07-03-2010 at 03:00 PM..

 
Old 07-03-2010, 02:52 PM
 
159 posts, read 150,298 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
LOL..reason......this is where you fail....reason was the original sin, faith has littel to do with reason...so...no you stand corrected.
LOL, if I where Devil, first thing I would say is that we should not use reason. Without reason we can't even decide which faith we should blindly follow. Muslims can also tell me that I shouldn't use reason and that I should go to their God instead. Why are you even reasoning with me here? Go and pray to me or something, instead. Or wait for God to convince me, because you are not doing that great of a job (what would God say to you if you chase me away from him? interesting idea) .

Human reason gave us many interesting things, like computer you are typing this on. True, it's not perfect, but there is no way it's completely wicked. If you think it is, turn your computer off.

Quote:
Under the Old Covenant yes....secondly the Sheep and the Goats deal with Israel, the resurrection of the dead...themes I believe you cannot grasp...so it is pointless, unless you would like to know more.
Maybe I can't grasp those themes but why any need for complex interpretation? And who decides what to interpret and what to keep literal? Anything at all can be interpreted away. There isn't a hint in Sheep and Goats parable that it should not be taken literally. Why not, then, interpret verses about accepting Jesus away?


Quote:
No, that says nothing of the sort. God can be glorified in such a marriage, and do a work through the believing spouse to draw the unbelieving spouse to Jesus Christ. Sanctified, in this context and grammatical usage, does not mean that the unbelieving spouse is saved just by being married to a Christian. It simply means that they are set apart for a special working in their lives by the Holy Spirit, by virtue of being so close to someone who is a Christian.
Well how about Acts 16:31 “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Quote:
The scriptures do not contradict themeselves. Try me in any verse.
Then don't contradict themselves only if you interpret contradictions away. You can do that with almost anything. But tell me, then, how did Judas die? There are two versions:

Quote:
Matthew 27:4-6 4 "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood." "What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility." 5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. 6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." 7So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day.

Acts 1:18-19 18(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
Two versions of death of Judas differ in important details. If Bible can completely override reason, we should expect it to be free of even small contradictions, and contradictions on how Judas died are not small.

Anyway these are all small potatoes. The real problem to me is this:

Why was Hitler wrong in killing Jews when both he and Jews he killed are in hell forever? If your theology can't see any difference between non-believing dictator and his non-believing (but still decent) victims, then it is worse than useless. So, God gave us sense of right and wrong but his standards somehow have nothing to do with right and wrong?

Last edited by python87; 07-03-2010 at 03:30 PM..
 
Old 07-03-2010, 03:19 PM
 
Location: New England
32,326 posts, read 21,173,799 times
Reputation: 2294
Sciotamick i commend you on your knowledge regarding Preterism and orthodox christianity , i am sure you have spent many hours in study to grasp the teaching of both ,yet it's something which an unbeliever could school himself in if he so desired .

I prefer this myself

13When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.Acts 4

The men who said this were schooled men who had not been with Jesus . What was it these unlearned ordinary men had learnt from being around Jesus ? the doctrines of preterism ? , the trinity ? , the rapture ?, end time ministry ? , or was something far superior to all that ? , could it be that the fishermen, tax collectors and the like were drawn to and affected by His acceptance of them has they were, and being unlearnt in the teachings of men , they were readily open to receive the things of God ?
 
Old 07-03-2010, 03:20 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,443,373 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I will keep fighting the good fight with every last cell in my aching body.
Paul wouldn't like you using those words of his when your views place his efforts in vain.

Bring on the Preterist debate.
You just didn't like the answers...they didn't line up with your views....to research a view, means you have to see if it lines up with the scriptures...not the front page of the newspaper.
 
Old 07-03-2010, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,443,373 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post

The men who said this were schooled men who had not been with Jesus . What was it these unlearned ordinary men had learnt from being around Jesus ? the doctrines of preterism ? , the trinity ? , the rapture ?, end time ministry ? , or was something far superior to all that ? , could it be that the fishermen, tax collectors and the like were drawn to and affected by His acceptance of them has they were, and being unlearnt in the teachings of men , they were readily open to receive the things of God ?
No...the doctrine of the resurrection, and what it really meant for those who put their faith in Him. UR denies the resurrection to its very core.

Preterism is not the title, just an description of what already is...and was.
 
Old 07-03-2010, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,497,011 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Paul wouldn't like you using those words of his when your views place his efforts in vain.

Bring on the Preterist debate.
You just didn't like the answers...they didn't line up with your views....to research a view, means you have to see if it lines up with the scriptures...not the front page of the newspaper.
Wow. Good thing I don't read the newspapers. I don't even have a T.V. I don't watch Hollywood movies much, either. I also homeschool two great children. What is your point?

I'm not scared or intimidated by your posts. Not at all. This has been a 3-decade process for me, and I'm tired and a bit worn out, so.......

This is not a preterist thread. You can start one or I can bring up an old thread on the subject if you would like.

Last edited by herefornow; 07-03-2010 at 03:46 PM..
 
Old 07-03-2010, 03:28 PM
 
Location: New England
32,326 posts, read 21,173,799 times
Reputation: 2294
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
No...the doctrine of the resurrection, and what it really meant for those who put their faith in Him. UR denies the resurrection to its very core.

Preterism is not the title, just an description of what already is...and was.
It was not the resurrection that drew them at all , they had no faith or understanding of such a thing until after He rose from the dead .

I felt i needed to say what i said for the benefit of other posters who may find you just a little intimidating due to your knowledge on preterism and orthodox christianity .
 
Old 07-03-2010, 03:42 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,443,373 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by python87 View Post
LOL, if I where Devil, first thing I would say is that we should not use reason. Without reason we can't even decide which faith we should blindly follow. Muslims can also tell me that I shouldn't use reason and that I should go to their God instead. Why are you even reasoning with me here? Go and pray to me or something, instead. Or wait for God to convince me, because you are not doing that great of a job (what would God say to you if you chase me away from him? interesting idea) .
Not my job. You either respond to the Gospel..or you don't. I threw the seed out....that's it...God germinates if He feels there is good work in you for Him and His praise and glory. Luckily, unbelievably lucky, I am to be part of that. So lucky!

Quote:
Human reason gave us many interesting things, like computer you are typing this on. True, it's not perfect, but there is no way it's completely wicked. If you think it is, turn your computer off.
No..my computer is not evil, but I can do evil on it.

Quote:
Maybe I can't grasp those themes but why any need for complex interpretation?
It isn't difficult..actually. The scriptures define the themes. Just have to look for them. Sheep - Saints - Goats - Not Saints

Quote:
And who decides what to interpret and what to keep literal?
The scripture.

Quote:
Anything at all can be interpreted away
Not with the above hermeneutics.

There isn't a hint in Sheep and Goats parable that it should not be taken literally.[/quote]

What do you mean by literal, as I take it literal, symbolic, spiritually, and historically.

Quote:
Why not, then, interpret verses about accepting Jesus away?
I do...as the above sais...all ways. I am refined,and purified, Blood washed over me, my mouth and heart and mind confessed, with my tongue, and I am unblemished and baptized with fire. The Lord consumed me in baptism with His fire. You see? I can be read all ways.

Quote:
Well how about Acts 16:31 “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Same concept as 1 Cor 7. Paul never changed his doctrine. And Peter confirmed although Paul could be a little complex even for him at times, he taught the same doctrine.

[quote]Then don't contradict themselves only if you interpret contradictions away. [/uote]

UR is pretty good at that. For me, that isn't....logical, or beneficial.

Quote:
You can do that with almost anything. But tell me, then, how did Judas die? There are two versions:

Two versions of death of Judas differ in important details. If Bible can completely override reason, we should expect it to be free of even small contradictions, and contradictions on how Judas died are not small.
First of all, notice that the text in Matthew does not say that Judas died as a result of hanging. All it says is that he "went and hanged himself." Luke however, in Acts, tells us that "and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out." This is a pretty clear indication (along with the other details given in Acts - Peter's speech, the need to pick a new apostle, etc.) that at least after Judas' fall, he was dead. So the whole concept that Matthew and Luke both recount Judas' death is highly probable, but not clear cut. Therefore, if I were to take a radical exegetical approach here, I could invalidate your alleged contradiction that there are two different accounts of how Judas died.

In addition the Greek word APAGCHO used to describe Judas's hanging of himself was only used one other time in the Bible, it's only used in 2 Samuel 17:23 : "Now when Ahithophel saw that his advice was not followed, he saddled a donkey, and arose and went home to his house, to his city. Then he put his household in order, and hanged himself, and died; and he was buried in his father's tomb." Notice that not only is it stated that Ahithophel "hanged himself" ... but it explicitly adds, "and died". Here we have no doubt of the result. In Matthew, we are not explicitly told Judas died. Also, there is nothing in the Greek to suggest success or failure. It simply means "hang oneself." Matthew doesn't necessarily explain how Judas died; he does say Judas "hanged himself", but he didn't specifically say Judas died in the hanging incident. However, Acts seems to show us his graphic demise. Therefore, there is no contradiction between Matthew and Acts

He hung himslef, died and rotted a bit, and fell to the ground and he burst open.

Quote:
The real problem to me is this:

Why was Hitler wrong in killing Jews when both he and Jews he killed are in hell forever? If your theology can't see any difference between non-believing dictator and his non-believing (but still decent) victims, then it is worse than useless. So, God gave us sense of right and wrong but his standards somehow have nothing to do with right and wrong?

Why was Hitler wrong in killing Jews when both he and Jews he killed are in hell forever? If your theology can't see any difference between non-believing dictator and his non-believing (but still decent) victims, then it is worse than useless. So, God gave us sense of right and wrong but his standards somehow have nothing to do with right and wrong?
It isn't about our flesh. It is about the spirit. As far as God is concerned, a Jew is just as dead asa HItler. What he did was evil yes, and what many of the Jews did were not evil, but they are both without excuse.
Your sense of right and wrong is rooted in God, so again, you are without excuse. Decent people without Christ means nothing. For we are dead in our sin...we cannot approach Him without surrender in Christ.

He is the gate, gatekeeper, and key holder.
 
Old 07-03-2010, 03:45 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,443,373 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post

This is not a preterist thread. You can start one or I can bring up an old thread on the subject if you would like.
That's what I thought you were going to do.....
 
Old 07-03-2010, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,299,007 times
Reputation: 869
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Torment is torment, whether it be temporal or eternal, UR and ET believe both, and both must accept that God inflicts suffering on those who disobey. Either way you look at it, punishment is certain.

I will speak for myself, not all URers. The "punishment" is probably not the type you are imagining. The "coals of fire on the enemy's head" mentioned elsewhere recently come to mind..

Now the question is this:

If God is unchanging, and He has destroyed many people in the past, why is it so inconceivable for Him to send those to Hell that don't accept His son as their saviour?

God "destroys" people everyday. He also "destroys" the kingdoms of this world, such as a rich man who, faced with his death, realizes that what he has "built" will not stand. This is an example of the "destruction" that God puts in order for us to learn of Him.

God wiped out the human race except for Noah and his family correct?
Why is it so inconceivable that God would wipe out the entire human race again except for those that put their faith in His Son?

God has wiped out the race of Adam through the cross of Jesus!

The reconcilaiton is in Christ, and that reconciliaiton is manifest through Christ, and ONLY upon confession to His Lordship and Savior, are we are granted the gift of reconciliation which becomes manifested in us as a new creation, a new man.

Yes!

Man is dead in his sins, without Christ. And to have Christ in you, you must put to death the old man with the new man....and be resurrected unto life. Pretty clear, yet UR defies this neccessity.

I don't think any URer is denying the need for the death of the old man.
Personally, I believe that the old man is already dead in everyone. The only "life" is the "Life of Christ." He died so that he who lives would live unto Him that gave Himself.
Blessings,
brian
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