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I agree, it is confusing. That's why they should study Catholicism to at least understand what the religion teaches at a basic level because, after all, that is who they got the Bible from.
You maybe right here . I did something more than study orthodox christianity, i was sucked in by it without really thinking about what i so readily believed it taught . I have no doubt the Lord used my time under it's grip for good though .
There is much more information online if you research about how the Bible came to be, and the Catholic Church's role in this. The term "catholic apologetics" together with "bible" are good search terms to use.
Last edited by DreamingSpires; 07-02-2010 at 04:16 AM..
Never mind who is or is not to blame or who did or did not repent for whatever reason before they died, the point is that we are commanded to love our enemies and not to return evil for evil. We are told to overcome evil with Good. Do you understand what that means?
When we forgive and do good to those that spitefully abuse us, it is like pouring hot coals of fire over their head. Is causing someone to suffer without purpose Good or evil? Is never ending punishment rational or reasonable? What purpose does it serve? These are just a few of the questions that arise when one considers the doctrine of ET up close.
If we are to be like God, and we are commanded to overcome evil with goodness, and not to return evil for evil, then how must God be? IF God will return evil for evil, so that those who did evil would experience nothing but evil forever more, then why are we commanded not to do so in order to be like our father in heaven? Why are we told to forgive and turn the other cheek and love our enemies if God will not and or does not?
If we are told not to condemn others, then should we believe that God would condemn most humans who have ever existed for everlasting?
Listen to your heart people, and learn to think for yourselves, so then the spirit can reveal the true Good news to you through the scriptures.
God bless ...
I do "think for myself," thank you very much.
"Overcoming evil with good...." -- I agree this is what we are commaneded to do, but you and I have serious differences as regards what God means by this commandment.
If you really believed everything you wrote above you would insist that all prisons were closed and offenders released into the community immediately. You would also insist that criminal and most civil laws were wiped off the books and never enforced. You would consider the Nuremberg trials and all war crimes tribunals an offence against God, the ever-loving creator.
You would welcome with open arms murderers, child abusers, and every form of criminal offenders to your dinner table and, if they needed it, into your home for shelter, no questions asked.
In short, your words may sound reasonable on paper (to some--not to me, however) but they must be followed by actions, otherwise they are just hollow words.
Well, DreamingSpires, mixing of pagan philosophy and Christianity is what gave birth to many fine things, like Renaissance. Augustine (and Christianity as a whole, I think) owes a lot to Platonism (although many won't admit it is so). Truth can come from many corners and so can falsehood, so I don't see why are you guys having such a problem with using philosophy to decide what's true.
You are quite correct about Augustine. St Thomas Aquinas, likewise, was influenced greatly by Aristotle.
You are misunderstanding what I meant by "syncretism." As I explained awhile back on another thread with respect to Catholicism
"Syncretism," when applied to Catholicism, involves attempting to blend ideas from other religious traditions that are not reconcilable with Catholic doctrine (such as reincarnation).
Rituals and beliefs adopted from Paganism are "A OK" so long as they do not conflict with Catholic Doctrine.
Once Catholicism becomes "syncretized," as it is in Haiti, it is no longer Catholicism by any stretch of the imagination
These general points can also be applied to the gnostic infiltration taking place now (and historically) in Protestant Christianity as well as Catholicism.
I hope this clarifies my position.
Last edited by DreamingSpires; 07-02-2010 at 04:11 AM..
Reason: clarity
Pagan philosophy is that God will accomplish all He desires? I don't suppose you think it's pagan philosophy that God will roast people forever? I guess some think He loves most people less than a marshmellow. At least a roasted marshmellow has a purpose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by python87
Good point. One roasted marshmellow has more purpose (to be eaten) than whole of hell.
Never mind who is or is not to blame or who did or did not repent for whatever reason before they died, the point is that we are commanded to love our enemies and not to return evil for evil. We are told to overcome evil with Good. Do you understand what that means?
When we forgive and do good to those that spitefully abuse us, it is like pouring hot coals of fire over their head. Is causing someone to suffer without purpose Good or evil? Is never ending punishment rational or reasonable? What purpose does it serve? These are just a few of the questions that arise when one considers the doctrine of ET up close.
If we are to be like God, and we are commanded to overcome evil with goodness, and not to return evil for evil, then how must God be? IF God will return evil for evil, so that those who did evil would experience nothing but evil forever more, then why are we commanded not to do so in order to be like our father in heaven? Why are we told to forgive and turn the other cheek and love our enemies if God will not and or does not?
If we are told not to condemn others, then should we believe that God would condemn most humans who have ever existed for everlasting?
Listen to your heart people, and learn to think for yourselves, so then the spirit can reveal the true Good news to you through the scriptures.
God bless ...
Your post got me thinking on some verses that we so seldom discuss.
To review:
Sciotamicks said: "God loves those who love Him back." Sciotamicks has revealed what is at the foundation of the type of fundamentalist thinking that caused me to make this thread. In this line of thinking, it's not "We love Him because He loved us," but, "He loves us because we love Him." Completely the opposite of what is written!
Add to that the declaration that "we have the mind of Christ" and *bingo!* you've made a new Gospel!
Now back to Romans 12:
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Why would God tell us to not recompense to others evil when we suffer evil? Isn't He going to punish them eternally for not believing? Here, Paul is telling us how to become more like the Father.
"Avenge not yourselves." When I was under the influence of hell/annihilation, I could just say to unbelievers, "who cares then? You're all going to hell!" Condemnation and bitterness.
"By doing GOOD to your enemies, you are heaping coals of fire on your enemies' heads." Hmmmm.... Rarely discussed as to WHY fire is used here? Aren't we talking about doing GOOD? Why then is it a "fire" to the enemy?? Is THIS what "fire and brimstone" is perhaps all about-- being "flooded" with the Goodness of God? Is this maybe the TRUE torment that ETers refer to when talking about where "the wicked" shall go?
Lastly, we shouldn't let evil "overcome us." If God sent people into eternal torment, wouldn't it be accurate to deduce that He had been overcome of evil?
"Overcoming evil with good...." -- I agree this is what we are commaneded to do, but you and I have serious differences as regards what God means by this commandment.
If you really believed everything you wrote above you would insist that all prisons were closed and offenders released into the community immediately. You would also insist that criminal and most civil laws were wiped off the books and never enforced. You would consider the Nuremberg trials and all war crimes tribunals an offence against God, the ever-loving creator.
You would welcome with open arms murderers, child abusers, and every form of criminal offenders to your dinner table and, if they needed it, into your home for shelter, no questions asked.
In short, your words may sound reasonable on paper (to some--not to me, however) but they must be followed by actions, otherwise they are just hollow words.
What would happen if we just "forgot" about the evil that others do to us?
You ET'ers, so 4/5th of mankind is doomed forever?
How can God, who is perfect, come up with such a screwed up plan even taking free will into consideration?
If your premise is correct, then God really isn't perfect thus God really isn't God but some flawed yet powerful creature.
hmmm...I wonder what this means?....
Isaiah 11:6..The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.
heres a hint......trust in God the way a small child trusts in his/her parents..by believing in ET, you are doing anything BUT. You cling to traditions of men instead of His love.
"Overcoming evil with good...." -- I agree this is what we are commaneded to do, but you and I have serious differences as regards what God means by this commandment.
If you really believed everything you wrote above you would insist that all prisons were closed and offenders released into the community immediately. You would also insist that criminal and most civil laws were wiped off the books and never enforced. You would consider the Nuremberg trials and all war crimes tribunals an offence against God, the ever-loving creator.
You would welcome with open arms murderers, child abusers, and every form of criminal offenders to your dinner table and, if they needed it, into your home for shelter, no questions asked.
In short, your words may sound reasonable on paper (to some--not to me, however) but they must be followed by actions, otherwise they are just hollow words.
That is simply ridiculous ... I do believe that America has entirely to many prisons and that there are entirely to many criminal laws to begin with ... However even prison should be about rehabilitation and education, not simply punitive punishment.
Though i cannot change the heart and mind of a wicked man, God most certainly can, and that is what it means to overcome evil with Good for God. Just like when he changed the heart of Paul and or Nebuchadnezzar ...
That is simply ridiculous ... I do believe that America has entirely to many prisons and that there are entirely to many criminal laws to begin with ... However even prison should be about rehabilitation and education, not simply punitive punishment.
Though i cannot change the heart and mind of a wicked man, God most certainly can, and that is what it means to overcome evil with Good for God. Just like when he changed the heart of Paul and or Nebuchadnezzar ...
Actually, asking you to "put your money where your mouth is" is an entirely rational suggestion in light of the bad and very dangerous theology you are pushing here.
There is a saying, "actions speak louder than words." If you really believed what you claim to believe about the nature of God and what He demands of you, you would put it into practice instead of just talk about it.
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I don't suppose you think it's pagan philosophy that God will roast people forever? I guess some think He loves most people less than a marshmellow. At least a roasted marshmellow has a purpose.
