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Old 07-06-2010, 09:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by juj View Post
Jesus not only accepted it, he started it. Peace.
Correction.Catholics claim He started it.The churches started by the other apostles did not agree.Not then,not now.For over 1900 years.
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by juj View Post
.....All proven false and not even believed to be true for 1500+ years. It is a free country, thank God, so believe what you will but know that your belief never crossed a Christian mind for three-quarters of the time Christians roamed the earth.
I really have to interject my thoughts here and remind you that the such a belief DID enter a Christian mind during that time. The Orthodox Church did NOT/does NOT accept the same belief about the papacy, and yet they are considered BY THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH to be one of the two lungs of the church...ie. they are christians.
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by juj View Post
Your belief about Peter not being the rock on which Christ's Church was built is false and unorthodox, but clearly protestant....

I found an article on line with a very interesting take on Peter - the gist of it is that when Jesus said Peter was the rock, he was being ironic.

I'd like to copy paste the section of the article on Peter, but I've noticed sometimes people get modded for copyright reasons, so I'll just provide a link instead.

The Humor of Jesus of Nazareth (http://artfuljesus.0catch.com/viney.html - broken link)

I've got no horse in this Orthodox/Roman Catholic contest, being a Protestant and all, but lifertexan, be sure and read it, I'm interested in your reaction...
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:37 PM
 
40,117 posts, read 26,779,715 times
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Originally Posted by juj View Post
Maybe in Matthew, Jesus said, you 33,0000 or so guys, start spreading my Gospel everywhere and tell them anything you like as long as you can proof text your belief with a line out of scripture. Heck, you good folks don't even have to agree on how you get to heaven. Oh and by the way, the new part of the scripture that you guys should follow won't even start to be written for decades and won't even be put in the same book for almost 400 years. Oh, and that Bible will be created by a rogue Church that calls themselves Catholic. But don't listen to a word that they say, but by all means, totally agree with what's in that book that they assembled. In fact, make that rogue, twisted Church's book your only source for Truth. Yea, now go forth and and spread my Word, uh Words, well your Words, oh, you know what I mean.

Yep, I certainly understand why protestantism makes perfect sense to you.
Completely unresponsive. Why does the Catholic church violate Jesus' express instructions and even use the example He gave them to solidify it as the ceremony to install the hierarchy??!!!??
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:41 PM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Completely unresponsive. Why does the Catholic church violate Jesus' express instructions and even use the example He gave them to solidify it as the ceremony to install the hierarchy??!!!??
Please reread Matthew 16:19. It gave power to Peter to bind (forbid) and loose (permit). Peter along with the Apostles set up a means of succession as they were given the Authority by Jesus to do so.
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by juj View Post
Please reread Matthew 16:19. It gave power to Peter to bind (forbid) and loose (permit). Peter along with the Apostles set up a means of succession as they were given the Authority by Jesus to do so.
They never had the authority to have a hierarchy in the first place . . . let alone set up a succession. That is strictly man-made and typical of the crap we humans are prone to. Pharisees all over again.
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:44 PM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
They never had the authority to have a hierarchy in the first place . . . let alone set up a succession. That is strictly man-made and typical of the crap we humans are prone to. Pharisees all over again.
Matthew 16:19
19 And I will give unto thee (Peter) the keys (Authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou (Peter) shalt bind (forbid) on earth shall be bound (forbidden) in heaven: and whatsoever thou (Peter) shalt loose (permit) on earth shall be loosed (permitted) in heaven.

Yea, that would be Authority given to do whatever Peter saw fit. Peter didn't want the Church to die right after he died, so he helped organize the succession process. The Apostles became the bishops of their respective regions and Peter was head of the Church with the lead region being Rome. Yes a leader and hierarchy. Crazy.
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Old 07-07-2010, 07:17 AM
 
40,117 posts, read 26,779,715 times
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Originally Posted by juj View Post
Matthew 16:19
19 And I will give unto thee (Peter) the keys (Authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou (Peter) shalt bind (forbid) on earth shall be bound (forbidden) in heaven: and whatsoever thou (Peter) shalt loose (permit) on earth shall be loosed (permitted) in heaven.

Yea, that would be Authority given to do whatever Peter saw fit. Peter didn't want the Church to die right after he died, so he helped organize the succession process. The Apostles became the bishops of their respective regions and Peter was head of the Church with the lead region being Rome. Yes a leader and hierarchy. Crazy.
And in direct contravention of Jesus' wishes for them.
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Old 07-07-2010, 07:37 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Originally Posted by juj View Post
Your belief about Peter not being the rock on which Christ's Church was built is false and unorthodox, but clearly protestant. I don't need to read it. I have all the same baloney about God is the rock, Jesus is the rock, or my favorite, Peter was a little pebble, not a big rock. All proven false and not even believed to be true for 1500+ years. It is a free country, thank God, so believe what you will but know that your belief never crossed a Christian mind for three-quarters of the time Christians roamed the earth.
Hi,

I assume we are talking about the following portion of scripture from Matthew, Chapter 16:

When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

When I read this portion of scripture, I believe it is saying that the ROCK on which Jesus Christ will build his church is not Peter, but upon the truth that "flesh and blood has not revealed Christ unto anyone, but the Father in heaven". It's as simple as that (IMO). To take this portion of scripture and posit that it is about Jesus initiating the Papacy seems completely fabricated out of thin air. I no longer consider myself a Protestant, however because the Protestant churches are just as bad (if not worse off) than the Roman Catholic Church regarding error.

Heartsong
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Old 07-07-2010, 07:52 AM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 2,335,096 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
And in direct contravention of Jesus' wishes for them.
Then pray for guidance or possibly dig deeper into the Bible verses you referenced. What's the context? When was it said in relation to the Matthew verses and who was the audience. Was it a local issue?

I might look into it later myself. But first, work.
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