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Old 07-06-2010, 11:32 PM
 
Location: Katonah, NY
21,188 posts, read 21,028,633 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Well - if you really HAVE to have a label, she's a Jewpanes Heatherist, Liberal
Bingo!
But I guess you were both right with your first comments - because first and foremost - I am human!
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Old 07-07-2010, 02:35 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,293,336 times
Reputation: 869
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Do you not read the Bible? The whole Bible...not the little parts that you want to read that fit in with your views...but the entire thing.

God kills, He destroys, He commits genocide...for His people.
He does the same now. He eliminates the wicked in Hell.



The devil is burning...he has no power over me.
He cannot accuse the saints anymore.



That's the problem, you put your heart as how God feels. WRONG. Your heart is erred and influenced by your own desires. It is of the flesh. It is an old creation. What is new, is what is eternal.
If you read the whole Bible and accept the mutiple natures of God, then you will be correct. He is love, but He is also with wrath.
You are a child of Adam, not God. Once you accept Christ, you are a child of God. Adam was made in His image, and it is us who are made in Adam's fallen image. Not God's. Your nature is sinful, and no where even close to God. Your heart will lie to you. It will ask you to take another bite of that succulant fruit of knowledge of good and evil.
Hi Sciotamicks,
Yes, I read the Bible, I have no fear of dealing with any chapter of it, because I believe that God is love. The OT peoples did not know that God is love. They thought that God was a vengeful tyrant who would destroy everyone except Israel. But we can read how God restores even Sodom, Gomorrah and Egypt. God made it plain even to in the OT, that what He desires is mercy, not sacrifice.

Let's take things to a new level.
God, as you say, can do whatever He wants. He answers to no one.
Agreed.
We can both also confidently say that neither of us has seen what happens after death. This is where "hope" comes in.
We have "hope" for what we haven't yet seen. My "hope" is in a God whose mercy endures forever, without end. Your "hope" is in eternal salvation for only a few people, while the rest burn in hell. Honestly, I don't see much good in a "hope" such as that.
Now maybe I'm wrong. Maybe God will throw me in a fire to scream for all eternity. I'm sure that He could if He wanted to.
But my "hope" is in a "Higher" God. A God who is unlike the rest of the religions of the world, which say the same thing you are saying: "be like me or die." Even if hockey were your religion, and you went around telling people to "play hockey with me or die!", you would still find that most people wouldn't be interested. Using the fear of the unknown in order to get proselytes does not create genuine love and worship. It is little more than intimidation.

If God has an "elect" the way you interpret "elect," then free will has no relevance, since those who are "elected" will be saved anyway, even if they never leave the sandbox. They are eternally "elected." There is no need to tell people about heaven and hell, since it's all predestined to happen anyways.
Personally, I don't believe that God will throw away His creation. It seems that there are many pagan religions which adhere to this type of eternal scenario, but I have a hunch that the God of Isaac, Abraham and Jacob is a bit bigger than these.

Psalm 107 tells me how God brings man down, then lifts him up again:
9 For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness. 10 Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron;
11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High:
12 Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help.
13 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses.
14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder.
15 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!

I believe in a God of mercy. I believe that Jesus told the truth when He said that the publican went home justified after asking for mercy, and not the Pharisee, who was thanking God for making him more righteous than others.

Moreover, you say that my heart is corrupt. I say that God has given me a new heart, one that beats with His Love. And I am not afraid to let myself be guided by this new heart, because there is no sin in that which is good. (Actually, I believe He has given you a new heart too, it's just that you seem afraid to listen to it.)

The Bible doesn't teach us to "accept Christ." We didn't "accept Adam," did we? No. We were put into Adam in order to be put in Christ by God. On the contrary, what we DO read is what GOD accepts:

"Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him."
and, "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."
and, "Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord."
---Maybe the question is not if we accept Christ, but if He accepts us!!

Paul did not preach hell to anyone, according to Scriptures. Yet you talk about it quite a lot. I wonder why? Because Jesus talked about it? But remember that Jesus said that He had MANY things to say to the disciples, but they weren't ready to hear. Do you think He told them those "other things" at some point later? I do. I believe that one of the things He told them was this: "That which God has cleansed, call not thou unclean." God has cleansed.
But the church continues to tell us how unclean we are!

My hope today, Sciotamicks, is in a God of Love and Mercy. Something which the world cannot understand.

Many blessings to you,
brian
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Old 07-07-2010, 08:49 AM
 
40,141 posts, read 26,779,715 times
Reputation: 6053
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The writers of the scriptures were burning babies? LOL

Get another book and stick your nose in it.
You have no clue about the differences in cognitive mindsets between generations over millennia. That was to illustrate the kind of differences and the level of barbarity in our species that we are talking about . . . something you seem oblivious to (and uneducated about). For just a minor example of the differences in perception and understanding such generational gaps can produce . . . try watching a serious and dramatic silent movie and see what YOUR reaction to it is. Then contemplate that those audiences reacted very differently . . . they were serious to them . . . and they were not millennia removed from us or a different culture or barbaric at all, etc. You have so much to learn, Grasshopper.
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Old 07-07-2010, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,766,117 times
Reputation: 1595
Originally Posted by sciotamicks
Do you not read the Bible? The whole Bible...not the little parts that you want to read that fit in with your views...but the entire thing.

God kills, He destroys, He commits genocide...for His people.
He does the same now. He eliminates the wicked in Hell.



The devil is burning...he has no power over me.
He cannot accuse the saints anymore.


That's the problem, you put your heart as how God feels. WRONG. Your heart is erred and influenced by your own desires. It is of the flesh. It is an old creation. What is new, is what is eternal.
If you read the whole Bible and accept the mutiple natures of God, then you will be correct. He is love, but He is also with wrath.
You are a child of Adam, not God. Once you accept Christ, you are a child of God. Adam was made in His image, and it is us who are made in Adam's fallen image. Not God's. Your nature is sinful, and no where even close to God. Your heart will lie to you. It will ask you to take another bite of that succulant fruit of knowledge of good and evil.
_________________________________________

Have you no clue what it means to have a hard heart or what God means when he says, "Mercy I have desired, and not sacrifice". Do you even understand the concept of mercy? I sure can't find it in your expressions! Do you even know what Love is???

Heartsong

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Old 07-07-2010, 09:57 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,772,538 times
Reputation: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Never said that...again...you impose words that arent there. I repeat...Christ sacrifice is good for all, but not all come to the faith. That is limited atonement.

You have been corrected. Stop lying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
You are either confused by your own thoughts, or you are lying.
You said:
"He died for many, not all. This is my blood of the New Testament, which is shed for MANY.
Not all!"
in this thread:
No Universal Salvation Form Death for All Mankind Post #138.

I don't appreciate you calling me a liar, and then when I prove that you were the one lying, you ignore my post. What do you have to say for yourself? Why do you say Christ only died for some, then not only deny you said it, but call me a liar?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Christ died for MANY...not ALL...has nothing to do with mankind as a whole! How many times do I have to say this! Sometimes I feel like I am talking to a bunch of kids! Stay with the themes....and if you all can't have a multi layered conversation....why are you engaging me at all?

I am a Full Preterist. This soteriological statement was directed SOLELY at the Israel under the death sentence of Adam. The MANY are the elect, are the dead ones sleeping in paradise, the firstfruits and on and on. It may be confusing to you, but I am trying to stay with the themes without getting into an eschatological nightmare. The theme is...many not all...whether it be Israel or the entire world that fact is....that only a few are chosen to inherit the kingdom of God. His government will continue to increase. The concept never changes......God chooses...not all, but some.

They are the few.
From that redemption, their eschatological resurrection drew near.
Was this supposed to be an answer to my post that you quoted above your response? Well, it wasn't. The question was:

Why do you say Christ only died for some, then not only deny you said it, but call me a liar?

Obviously, you can't answer this without admitting you were the one lying, and would owe me an apology, so I don't expect a reply.
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Old 07-07-2010, 10:13 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,772,538 times
Reputation: 264
[quote=Bright Hope for Tomorrow;14924982]
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Never said that...again...you impose words that arent there. I repeat...Christ sacrifice is good for all, but not all come to the faith. That is limited atonement.

You have been corrected. Stop lying. [/quote]

I don't appreciate you calling me a liar, and then when I prove that you were the one lying, you ignore my post. What do you have to say for yourself? Why do you say Christ only died for some, then not only deny you said it, but call me a liar?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Christ died for MANY...not ALL...has nothing to do with mankind as a whole! How many times do I have to say this! Sometimes I feel like I am talking to a bunch of kids! Stay with the themes....and if you all can't have a multi layered conversation....why are you engaging me at all?

I am a Full Preterist. This soteriological statement was directed SOLELY at the Israel under the death sentence of Adam. The MANY are the elect, are the dead ones sleeping in paradise, the firstfruits and on and on. It may be confusing to you, but I am trying to stay with the themes without getting into an eschatological nightmare. The theme is...many not all...whether it be Israel or the entire world that fact is....that only a few are chosen to inherit the kingdom of God. His government will continue to increase. The concept never changes......God chooses...not all, but some.

They are the few.
From that redemption, their eschatological resurrection drew near.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi Sciotamicks,
Yes, I read the Bible, I have no fear of dealing with any chapter of it, because I believe that God is love. The OT peoples did not know that God is love. They thought that God was a vengeful tyrant who would destroy everyone except Israel. But we can read how God restores even Sodom, Gomorrah and Egypt. God made it plain even to in the OT, that what He desires is mercy, not sacrifice.

Let's take things to a new level.
God, as you say, can do whatever He wants. He answers to no one.
Agreed.
We can both also confidently say that neither of us has seen what happens after death. This is where "hope" comes in.
We have "hope" for what we haven't yet seen. My "hope" is in a God whose mercy endures forever, without end. Your "hope" is in eternal salvation for only a few people, while the rest burn in hell. Honestly, I don't see much good in a "hope" such as that.
Now maybe I'm wrong. Maybe God will throw me in a fire to scream for all eternity. I'm sure that He could if He wanted to.
But my "hope" is in a "Higher" God. A God who is unlike the rest of the religions of the world, which say the same thing you are saying: "be like me or die." Even if hockey were your religion, and you went around telling people to "play hockey with me or die!", you would still find that most people wouldn't be interested. Using the fear of the unknown in order to get proselytes does not create genuine love and worship. It is little more than intimidation.

If God has an "elect" the way you interpret "elect," then free will has no relevance, since those who are "elected" will be saved anyway, even if they never leave the sandbox. They are eternally "elected." There is no need to tell people about heaven and hell, since it's all predestined to happen anyways.
Personally, I don't believe that God will throw away His creation. It seems that there are many pagan religions which adhere to this type of eternal scenario, but I have a hunch that the God of Isaac, Abraham and Jacob is a bit bigger than these.

Psalm 107 tells me how God brings man down, then lifts him up again:
9 For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness. 10 Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron;
11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High:
12 Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help.
13 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses.
14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder.
15 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!

I believe in a God of mercy. I believe that Jesus told the truth when He said that the publican went home justified after asking for mercy, and not the Pharisee, who was thanking God for making him more righteous than others.

Moreover, you say that my heart is corrupt. I say that God has given me a new heart, one that beats with His Love. And I am not afraid to let myself be guided by this new heart, because there is no sin in that which is good. (Actually, I believe He has given you a new heart too, it's just that you seem afraid to listen to it.)

The Bible doesn't teach us to "accept Christ." We didn't "accept Adam," did we? No. We were put into Adam in order to be put in Christ by God. On the contrary, what we DO read is what GOD accepts:

"Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him."
and, "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."
and, "Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord."
---Maybe the question is not if we accept Christ, but if He accepts us!!

Paul did not preach hell to anyone, according to Scriptures. Yet you talk about it quite a lot. I wonder why? Because Jesus talked about it? But remember that Jesus said that He had MANY things to say to the disciples, but they weren't ready to hear. Do you think He told them those "other things" at some point later? I do. I believe that one of the things He told them was this: "That which God has cleansed, call not thou unclean." God has cleansed.
But the church continues to tell us how unclean we are!

My hope today, Sciotamicks, is in a God of Love and Mercy. Something which the world cannot understand.

Many blessings to you,
brian
Great post, Brian.
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Old 07-07-2010, 10:54 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,493,941 times
Reputation: 438
That was a beautiful post, Brian. I believe the God of Isaac, Abraham and Jacob (the Creator of us ALL) is much bigger than any of us realize, and much, MUCH different than the pagan gods and goddesses of old.

The human is having problems catching up to God's ways.

Last edited by herefornow; 07-07-2010 at 11:24 PM..
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Old 07-07-2010, 11:07 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,724,376 times
Reputation: 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I am the walrus
Excellent pic and reply sciotamicks!

Blessings....
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Old 07-08-2010, 02:03 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,438,367 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Was this supposed to be an answer to my post that you quoted above your response? Well, it wasn't. The question was:

Why do you say Christ only died for some, then not only deny you said it, but call me a liar?

Obviously, you can't answer this without admitting you were the one lying, and would owe me an apology, so I don't expect a reply.
BHFT,

I said you were lying based on your belief system of the purification lake of fire for the wicked. This is the only, and I repeat, THE ONLY directed argument i have with UR . It is the only one I focus on, so in respect to you and others, it is a lie, and you and others are lying, whether knowingly or ignorantly...it is still al lie. You folks are not versed enough in the scripture's salvific properties when you make these conclusion. you focus on God's love, which is evident everywhere, but you leave out His wrath...why? Why I ask to you negate the justice of God.

So I apologize to you if I hurt your feelings, but in regards to my attack on your belief system, I still stand my ground, and say...It is a lie.

When you speak it, you may not know you are lying, since you obviously believe it, but in reality, it is still a lie.
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Old 07-08-2010, 04:23 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,766,117 times
Reputation: 1595
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
BHFT,

I said you were lying based on your belief system of the purification lake of fire for the wicked. This is the only, and I repeat, THE ONLY directed argument i have with UR . It is the only one I focus on, so in respect to you and others, it is a lie, and you and others are lying, whether knowingly or ignorantly...it is still al lie. You folks are not versed enough in the scripture's salvific properties when you make these conclusion. you focus on God's love, which is evident everywhere, but you leave out His wrath...why? Why I ask to you negate the justice of God.

So I apologize to you if I hurt your feelings, but in regards to my attack on your belief system, I still stand my ground, and say...It is a lie.

When you speak it, you may not know you are lying, since you obviously believe it, but in reality, it is still a lie.
The mature in Christ will be able to disagree without resorting to calling the other person a liar, a devil, or some other ugly name. After all, it is Satan who is said to be the "accuser of the brethren", and Jesus who said he condemned no man. Some day, we'll all reach maturity in Christ and will not fight and consume one another. When we do, it is evidence that our flesh is still operating. We are to "reckon ourselves dead".

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you be not consumed one of another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. - Galatians 5:13-15
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