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Old 07-09-2010, 06:45 AM
 
Location: Northern Va. from N.J.
4,390 posts, read 4,226,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Let me respectfully say that this should have nothing to do with whether these creatures are mistreated or not. Humans are in charge of this planet and it is our responsibility (AISI) to not only preserve what we are stewards over but to not inflict pain and agony on conscious living creatures.

The key is not how intelligent or non-intelligent they are. The key is that they are helpless and are subject to the whims of humans.
I do agree with what you say about us being stewards, but I do believe whales and dolphins deserve to be place in a catagory of beings.
As intelligent beings they do not deserve to be treated like circus animals.
I have two very intelligent Australian Shepherds that I love dearly, I have no problem with teaching them to sit up or give me your paw but I do have a problem doing that with dolphins.
It does seem whales and dolphins are treated as a lifeform that is lower than four legged creatures.
As a child I was also taught it was wrong to capture small wild creatures and keeping them as pets.
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Old 07-09-2010, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Maryland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ted08721 View Post
I do agree with what you say about us being stewards, but I do believe whales and dolphins deserve to be place in a catagory of beings.
As intelligent beings they do not deserve to be treated like circus animals.
I have two very intelligent Australian Shepherds that I love dearly, I have no problem with teaching them to sit up or give me your paw but I do have a problem doing that with dolphins.
It does seem whales and dolphins are treated as a lifeform that is lower than four legged creatures.
As a child I was also taught it was wrong to capture small wild creatures and keeping them as pets.
With all due respect,

Are you vegan?

I've heard for example that pigs are smarter than dogs, and the size of a cows brain as a % of it's body mass, is quite large.
Should we give them "rights" also?
Where do we draw the line? Size of brain? IQ? Does a cat deserve rights?At what point are human "rights" diminished for the sake of animals?
Are the animal's rights, inalienable God given rights?

Don't get me wrong, I have two dogs, that have more rights than I do

But legislating rights? I don't know.

I do appreciate you and others raising the questions though. Perhaps this will at least draw attention to humans "abuse" of God's creatures.
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Old 07-09-2010, 11:14 AM
 
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How would it be determined which animals were granted rights and which weren't? Where do we draw the line? God gave us the right to consume meat. Is there anyone of greater morality than him? Who are we to tell God "You have low moral standards for allowing us to kill animals and consume their meat"? Jesus fed 5000 with a meal that included fish. Who are we to say "You were wrong by allowing those fish to be killed for human consumption"? It would seem to me that an animal would have to be conscious of the concept of "rights", and have the ability to "exercise those rights" of their own volition, before such rights can be granted to them.
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Old 07-09-2010, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
But legislating rights? I don't know.

I do appreciate you and others raising the questions though. Perhaps this will at least draw attention to humans "abuse" of God's creatures.
Legislation is necessary because unscrupulous individuals and organizations will be abusive to animals unless there are real life consequences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shyspider View Post
God gave us the right to consume meat. Is there anyone of greater morality than him?
This was one of the biggest obstacles the abolishionists faced. "God" (I assume you actually mean "the Bible") "allows slavery so how can us mere mortals say it's immoral to own another human"? (BTW - I already know all the arguments fundamentalists try and use to justify biblical slavery. Bottom line - it says people can be "property" and it is okay).

I'd be willing to wager that if you were on the auction block you might reconsider the "Bible says it's okay so it's okay" mindset.

Fortunately for humanity - God given conscience won out over biblical doctrine.

Hopefully the same will happen concerning this:

YouTube - Meet Your Meat Part 2 of 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by shyspider View Post
It would seem to me that an animal would have to be conscious of the concept of "rights", and have the ability to "exercise those rights" of their own volition, before such rights can be granted to them.
I'm not sure what rights they are proposing. I'm not down with anthropomorphizing animals - I just pray our God given sensibilities win the day.

From what I understand sociopaths generally start as children tormenting animals and later in life move up to human prey. One of the things I saw clearly when watching the movie "Amazing Grace" is that our level of compassion in demonstrated in how we treat humans and animals. I think the data would bear this out.

Personally - I'm sick of bloodshed, sick of babarbarism, sick of slaughter and want no part of it.
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Old 07-09-2010, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Northern Va. from N.J.
4,390 posts, read 4,226,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
With all due respect,

Are you vegan?

I've heard for example that pigs are smarter than dogs, and the size of a cows brain as a % of it's body mass, is quite large.
Should we give them "rights" also?
Where do we draw the line? Size of brain? IQ? Does a cat deserve rights?At what point are human "rights" diminished for the sake of animals?
Are the animal's rights, inalienable God given rights?

Don't get me wrong, I have two dogs, that have more rights than I do

But legislating rights? I don't know.

I do appreciate you and others raising the questions though. Perhaps this will at least draw attention to humans "abuse" of God's creatures.
No I am not a vegan but have given some thought about it as a possible option, I have some health concerns that might not allow it, I have backed off of some meats due to inhumane treatment of the animals it does come from.
I do favor that all animals be treated in a humane way be they wild or domestic.
However I do believe whales and dolphins to be on a higher order that deserves special concern, they do have self awareness and have been treated worst then many four legged creatures, one just has to look at the 20,000 dolphins that are slaughter each year in Japan.
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Old 07-09-2010, 08:38 PM
 
40,195 posts, read 26,820,188 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Legislation is necessary because unscrupulous individuals and organizations will be abusive to animals unless there are real life consequences.
Fortunately for humanity - God given conscience won out over biblical doctrine.
I'm not sure what rights they are proposing. I'm not down with anthropomorphizing animals - I just pray our God given sensibilities win the day.
Personally - I'm sick of bloodshed, sick of barbarism, sick of slaughter and want no part of it.
I agree with your positions,FB and I spent many an agonizing decade trying to reconcile it all with the Oneness i encounter in deep meditation. The stark contrast with the carnality and brutality of this world seemed inexplicable. I remain "intolerant" of this reality . . . but I have rationalized my continued participation in it. There can be no excuse or tolerance for the infliction of suffering on any living thing . . . but those that can KNOW suffering (conscious) need special pleading and protection. The extant rules of "life consuming life" seem inescapable . . . if spiritually ugly. The underlying theme of the connectedness of nature in the 3-D movie sensation Avatar resonated with me. But I remain dissonant with the weak and young as prey that is prevalent in nature's "red in tooth and claw" paradigm. (I mentally apologize for swatting a fly or stepping on an ant . . . for pete's sake!)

The eternal aspect of energy and its "apparent ascension" upward to conscious intelligence provides the slimmest of rationales for all this carnage. As each lesser life form of the Sun's energy is consumed . . . its energy is transformed into that of the higher forms consuming it. As we progress up to human consciousness and intelligence we seem to have reached an apparent pinnacle (at least in our egotistic estimation in our little neck of the woods). IF our human consciousness is actually a cellular form of God's consciousness (as I believe) . . . then in a sense we are "deifying" everything we eat that enables us to produce this consciousness. IF only suffering could be eliminated from this chain . . . it would almost make some kind of sense.
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Old 07-09-2010, 09:09 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,727,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
IF only suffering could be eliminated from this chain . . . it would almost make some kind of sense.
What turned me was an online friend who simply said (of the Kingdom) "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain" even "The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them".

Then he said that if the kingdom is in us we will act out the kingdom now.

I know these verses are symbols of peace on earth etc. but I just made a personal choice not to be involved in the slaughter anymore. Some argue that all the slaughter is 'natural' - animals eat animal flesh. My response to that is that we are human and we hopefully will stop acting like conscienceless animals.

Every nutrient the body needs can be found in non-animal form. No suffering necessary!

Anyway - I don't want to harp on this too much and become a nuisance but just want to lay out my case and hopefully others will be ready to pick up on it.
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Old 07-10-2010, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 6,086,930 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ted08721 View Post
No I am not a vegan but have given some thought about it as a possible option, I have some health concerns that might not allow it, I have backed off of some meats due to inhumane treatment of the animals it does come from.
I do favor that all animals be treated in a humane way be they wild or domestic.
However I do believe whales and dolphins to be on a higher order that deserves special concern, they do have self awareness and have been treated worst then many four legged creatures, one just has to look at the 20,000 dolphins that are slaughter each year in Japan.
I too have given much thought to my carnivorous diet.

I will not eat milk fed veal for example, or tuna ( because of the dolphins )

I've considered buying only kosher meat. Apparently treatment of the animals is a priority along with a quick and painless death.

I still to this day say a little prayer when I throw lobsters in the pot.
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Old 07-10-2010, 12:31 PM
 
621 posts, read 1,054,493 times
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I'll try again, with perhaps a bit more gentleness in my words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
This was one of the biggest obstacles the abolishionists faced. "God" (I assume you actually mean "the Bible")
No, actually I mean "God". The Bible contains God-inspired words of guidance - some of which are mistranslated or misinterpreted. But I don't believe Romans 14:1-3, nor 1 Timothy 4:1-6, nor Genesis 9:3, are easily misinterpreted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
"allows slavery so how can us mere mortals say it's immoral to own another human"? (BTW - I already know all the arguments fundamentalists
I don't consider myself a fundamentalist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
try and use to justify biblical slavery. Bottom line - it says people can be "property" and it is okay).
I think there's a difference between forcing people of one particular race into positions of slavery against their will, such as what happened in America - and willingly selling yourself into slavery for the sake of being able to pay your debts or provide for your family, thus submitting to the control of a master who has purchased you - such as you find in the Bible. It should be noted that the Bible does indeed condemn certain forms of slavery, such as those which occured in America, and even with the Hebrews when they were enslaved in Egypt.


Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
From what I understand sociopaths generally start as children tormenting animals and later in life move up to human prey. One of the things I saw clearly when watching the movie "Amazing Grace" is that our level of compassion in demonstrated in how we treat humans and animals. I think the data would bear this out.

Personally - I'm sick of bloodshed, sick of babarbarism, sick of slaughter and want no part of it.
I don't blame you for being sick of such things. As I stated previously, I do not condone the mistreatment of animals. But I do not believe that means we must all become vegetarians.
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Old 07-11-2010, 11:38 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,727,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shyspider View Post
I don't blame you for being sick of such things. As I stated previously, I do not condone the mistreatment of animals. But I do not believe that means we must all become vegetarians.
Thanks for your kind response. I would just encourage all people and particularly followers of Jesus to consider what our needs/desires cost in terms of the conscious pain and suffering of others (ie: those people or creatures who are conscious and feel pain).

What we "must" do is a matter of personal conscience since the law allows the painful confinement and slaughter of animals. Much like it was once lawful to own/confine/whip/kill slaves.
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