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Old 07-06-2010, 11:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Until anyone of you can show the forum that in the scriptures it says:

The wicked dead are converted and purified as righteous you are all liars.

Otherwise the OP still stands, thw wicked's destination is eternal, second death.

Saul of Tarsus was one of the wicked.
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
Fortunately for me and most of Christianity,your opinion about who is a Christian
is of zero importance.
That is why you stand outside of the fold. And all of Christianity disagrees with you.
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Saul of Tarsus was one of the wicked.
Wicked dead....that is after they gave taken their last breath...read the post...or better yet....read the quote you quoted me.

Are you really serious?
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Originally Posted by legoman View Post
And furthermore, it wasn't a question of scripture. It was you plainly misrepresenting the argument you are debating against AKA a straw-man.
WHere is the scripture? You deflect once again!

Where is the scripture that the wicked that die, physicaly and biologically, get converted to righteousness and granted eternal ife?

Answer the question!
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
That is why you stand outside of the fold. And all of Christianity disagrees with you.
Your post makes no sense.Not that that is surprising though.But I just pointed out that MOST of Christianity does not take the Bible literally.So how am I outside the fold when I agree with most of Christianity outside of the evangelical ones?Catholics do not have to believe in creationism.Nor do Orthodox.Nor do Anglicans.
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Until anyone of you can show the forum that in the scriptures it says:

The wicked dead are converted and purified as righteous you are all liars.

Otherwise the OP still stands, thw wicked's destination is eternal, second death.
All share a common destiny--the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not. As it is with the good man, so with the sinner; as it is with those who take oaths, so with those who are afraid to take them. (Ecc. 9:2)

BTW.. what do you care when you believe Revelation is fulfilled already? That means the second death already took place and won't hurt anyone anymore anyway... Death and Hades are already taken care of....
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Wicked dead....that is after they gave taken their last breath...read the post...or better yet....read the quote you quoted me.

Are you really serious?

Saul of Tarsus tells us the fate of the wicked and the result of Gods wrath on them.

Paul was the result, Saul of Tarsus will not enter the kingdom and is destroyed.

I know you said wicked dead, but your premise that being dead on earth is too late isn't something my studies are obligated to use because it simply is not a barrier for God.

Further more there is not a scripture premise that distiguishes wicked dead from wicked live on earth before they die.
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Old 07-06-2010, 12:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Saul of Tarsus tells us the fate of the wicked and the result of Gods wrath on them.

Paul was the result, Saul of Tarsus will not enter the kingdom and is destroyed.

I know you said wicked dead, but your premise that being dead on earth is too late isn't something my studies are obligated to use because it simply is not a barrier for God.

Further more there is not a scripture premise that distiguishes wicked dead from wicked live on earth before they die.
Exactly.


Sciotamicks, there is plenty of scripture that shows what you are asking. Saul's conversion to Paul is the model that all will go through. But let us further establish some scriptural facts about the character and purpose of God. First it is important to realize that God doesn't change His mind or His purpose:

Heb 6:17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath.

Pay attention to the bolded words. God's purpose, and the nature of that purpose, are unchanging. God does not change how He acts toward you on the other side of death.

Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

So we see God's purpose and character here - it is preferable to have the wicked turn from his way, and if he does, the LORD will have mercy on him.The question is, will all turn to the LORD?:

Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him,

Furthermore we see God's plan for Christ was to make "the many" righteous - the same "the many" who were made sinners in Adam. This includes the wicked who have died, for otherwise it would not be the same "the many" in Adam.

Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

There is the resurrection (two of them) in which this will happen:

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked

John 5:29 ... those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

So we see there are two resurrections. Interesting note: these resurrections are not based on who chose Christ, but on "those who did good deeds" and "those who committed the evil deeds". But the point for now is that all are resurrected - all rise from the dead. This in itself tells us that all are made alive. For that is what resurrected means - to be made alive (see 1 Cor 15:22-28 where Jesus makes all alive).

But we see the wicked - those who commited evil - go to the resurrection of judgment. What is the purpose of this judgment?

Isaiah 26:9 For when the earth experiences Your judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.


Now before someone points to Isa 26:10 and says "look the wicked don't learn righteousness", pay attention to what verse 10 actually says:

Isaiah 26:10 Though the wicked is shown favor,
He does not learn righteousness; ...


Make sure you understand what this is saying. The wicked do not learn righteousness by being shown favor. No. But the wicked (in fact the whole world) do learn righteousness when God's judgements come in the earth, just as verse 9 says.

Like Phaze says above, there is no expiration of salvation at death. People will point to Hebrews 9:27 and say "look its too late after death because then you are judged". While it is true you are judged after death, it is that judgment that will cause you to learn righteousness.

So we see that God's purpose and character never changes. His intent is for all men to be made righteous, and this will happen through Christ, through His judgments. This will be achieved and testified to in due time (1 Tim 2:3-6).

When the wicked turn to the Lord, the Lord will have mercy on them and freely pardon them, just as Isaiah says. For the majority, this will happen after death, in the resurrection of judgment.

I hope you read and understand this sciotamicks.
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Old 07-06-2010, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Eschatology can not be separated from Gods plan -- It would seem to me that eschatology should let us know where we are at in Gods plan personally and nationally

The Jews were in error because they did not realise where Gods plan was up to, the foretelling of judgement coming to them in 70AD if they did not repent -- that they were disobedient in deeds and had ignored what Gods message was ----- which is Love God and love your neighbour as yourself and instead had used it to oppress those under them .........

Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Given the different types of life and death that exist in scripture, it should come as no surprise that there are varied types and forms of resurrection. Let us survey these briefly.

Physical Resurrection: There are numerous examples of the resurrection of physical bodies in the scriptures. Elisha raised the Shunammite’s son. (2 Kings 4:8-37) In another instance, when a man was being buried and his body touched the bones of Elisha, he revived. (2 Kings 13:20, 21) Jesus thrice restored to physical life those that were dead. (Luke 7:11-18; 8:49-56; John 11:1-46) And Jesus himself was raised anew to physical life. (John 20) Peter and Paul also both raised the dead to physical life. (Acts 9:36-43; 20:9, 10) In all these cases, however, excepting Jesus, those that were raised had to experience physical death a second time. Jesus, because he was translated (ascended) to heaven similar to Enoch and Elijah (who, however, only went to Hadean Paradise), did not die a second time. The eschatological resurrection of the last day did not involve physical bodies. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor 15:50) “That which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be.” (1 Cor 15:37) This alone puts the nail in the coffin or Universalism. It is sown a natural, material, corporeal body of sin nature, but is raised an intangible, immaterial, spiritual body.
(1 Cor 15:42-44)

National, Political Resurrection: The image of resurrection is used metaphorically of Israel during its captivity in Babylon and Assyria. Ezekiel saw a vision of dead bones come together and stand upon their feet, a great army. The vision was interpreted for Ezekiel as prophesying the nation’s political resurrection and restoration to its native land. (Ezek 37) Some attempt to make an analogy and apply this vision to the church, saying there is a collective and corporate resurrection of the national to the spiritual and the political to the ecclesiastical. However tempting this analogy may seem, it is certain no New Testament writer ever speaks of the eschatological resurrection in such terms. It exists only by the invention of certain modern writers and therefore should not be received as the teaching of the scriptures on the subject.

Moral and Spiritual Resurrection: Repentance and conversion are sometimes described in terms of a resurrection. Thus, Paul says, “Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.” (Eph 5:14; cross ref. Rom 13:11; 1 Cor 15:34) The image here is a man in a state of moral death and estrangement from God by sin, coming to repentance and life in Christ. However, obviously, this is merely a literary use of simile and metaphor, and not the eschatological resurrection of the dead. When the scriptures speak of the resurrection of the last day they are not speaking of repentance and conversion.

Juridical Resurrection: In Ephesians, Paul writes “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins…Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.” (Eph. 2:1, 5, 6) This is juridical resurrection; the image is that of thos under judgment of death receiving pardon and figuratively being “raised up” from juridical death and made to sit in heavenly places through the agency and representative office of Christ, who stands before God on our behalf and in whom we stand also. (Col 3:3, 4) As before, this is merely symbolic language adopted to describe a spiritual truth, and not an actual resurrection. The like image is used again by Paul in the context of baptism: “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.” (Rom 6:3-5; cross ref. Col 2:11, 12)

In baptism, the repentant believer is made a partaker of the saving effects of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection, and receives remission of sins. (Acts 2:38; 22:16; cross ref. Mark 1:4) Hence, Paul speaks of baptism as a type of juridical resurrection by which the sentence of death pronounced against the sinner is vacated and set aside and he is raised anew to life. Tertullian put it this way: "Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life."

It is juridical resurrection that Jesus had in view when he said “He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” (John 5:24, 25) Other similes and metaphors used to describe the relationship created by man’s response to the gospel include marriage, adoption, and rebirth. (John 3:3-5; Gal 4:1-7; Eph 22-32).

However, in all of these examples the language is purely symbolic and not actual...it is adapted to describe one that was under sentence of death, receiving pardon unto life by responding to the gospel call. In no event should they be construed as the eschatological resurrection...in any way, shape or form.

Hadean Resurrection: Here we begin to approach the actual, eschatological resurrection of the dead. The spirit of man does not cease to exist at physical death. Prior to the resurrection of the last day, the spirit of man was preserved alive and conscious by God in Hades. The wicked were kept under “chains of darkness” in Tartarus, “reserved unto judgment.” (2 Pet 2:4; cross ref. Luk 16:19-31) The righteous were kept in Paradise unto the resurrection of life. (John 5:29; cross ref. Dan 12:2) Those in Hades Paradise were described as participants of the “first resurrection.” (Rev 20:3-6; cross ref. Mark 12:26, 27) This “resurrection” consisted of the saved beginning with Adam and those forward until the eschatological resurrection of the last day.

Eschatological Resurrection: The promise of the resurrection was first made in the garden to Adam. “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” (Gen 3:15) The promise of resurrection here is couched in poetic terms in which the serpent is put for death, Eve is put for God’s people (the church), and the woman’s Seed is put for Christ. Death would strike at Christ, bruising his heel on Calvary, but Christ would crush death’s head by the power of his resurrection. The righteous were gathered by God into Hades Paradise at physical death to await the eschatological resurrection. In the last day of the former eon or age, Christ raised the dead out of Hades. The wicked were cast into Gehenna, the lake of fire, or second death; the righteous were taken to heaven. Hades Paradise has now been destroyed and the righteous now go directly to heaven upon the death of the body. (2 Cor 5:1-10) Revelation 20:11-15 is the only picture provided by scripture of the eschatological resurrection and it makes clear that it consisted of individual souls raised from Hades, both from the tormented in this flame
and Abraham's Bosom/Paradise - Luke 16

Quote:
The reason why we are condemned is because of Adams guilt, being born human is to be born into condemnation Romans 5:16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

So it seems to me that you believe that there is only resurrection for believers and non believers are not resurrected and not judged for their deeds both good and bad.
Answered above.

Quote:
What I see is a disconnect between what you preach - eternal death and no resurrection if there is not a belief in Christ for salvation against those that believe in resurrection for all, both just and unjust and eternal torment for those that do not believe in an "incorruptible" spiritual body. In traditional orthodox thought it is perceived that the believers are good because of what Christ did and the non believers are evil because they are human, ----- Eschatology is important – you seem to think that it is relatively immaterial but what I think it should be used to understand the different "types" and "antitypes", and how all of the ages eons (not eternals) and the life that relates to those eons, ages fit together.
Resurrection unto life, and resurrection unto death, are still resurrections. Like I said above, the resurrection of the dead ones is purely eschatological. Spritual resurrection, which grants us to eternal ife, is done upon confession and spiritual baptism.

Quote:
how many of the gentiles pre Christ have salvation in your opinion?
Rev 20:11-15 is another parallel Scripture to the prophecy of "the Sheep and Goats," and it confirms again not only the post-Parousia time of the Judgment of the sheep and the goats, but also, more strikingly, the heavenly location of that Judgment:

"And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Rev 20:11-15)

In Rev 20:11-15; Matt 22:7-13; 25:31-46, we see the following:

1. The passing away of Heaven and Earth (the end of the old-covenant world / the Coming of the Son of Man / the destruction of Jerusalem)

2. THEN the gathering together of all men (the righteous and the wicked / the sheep and the goats) for Judgment

3. Then the judgment of all men (the righteous and the wicked / the sheep and the goats) according to their deeds

4. Then the casting of the wicked (the goats) into the fire; outer darkness, the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Rev 20:11-15 reveals not only that the Judgment took place after the consummation of God's eschatological purging of His Kingdom on Earth, but also that those who were judged were "the dead" --those who had been gathered from out of "the sea" and from out of "death and Hades."

Lastly, Mat 8:11-12; 10:15; 11:22,24; 12:42; Luke 10:12,14; 11:31; 13:25-28 also lead us to interpret the prophecy of the Sheep and the Goats as having been fulfilled in Heaven, as those verses tell us that at the Judgment, "the goats" saw the peoples of past generations:

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you [the Jews to whom Jesus was preaching as He made His way to Jerusalem] shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves cast out." (Lk 13:28)

Though the post-Parousia Judgment was a judgment of all generations from Adam to Christ, the prophecy of the Sheep and the Goats is concerned only with the judgment of the dead of Christ's generation. God's “scapegoat” was that reprobate generation that despised and rejected the Body of the coming King. (Matt 23:45)

The "goats" were those of that generation who had no compassion for the King's suffering brothers (as the Rich Man had no compassion for Lazarus). The "goats" were chiefly the Jews of Judea, in union with their brothers who were scattered among "all the nations" of the Roman world. (Matt 25:32; John 11:48-52)

They had excluded believers from the synagogues and from the commonwealth of Israel. They had not only persecuted them, but they stood idly by, justifying themselves, while their brothers suffered deprivation and imprisonment through the hatred that the whole world had held against Christians. (Matt 7:22; James 2:14-17; 1 John 3:17; Rev 11:10)

The "sheep" were those who had loved and cared for the King's suffering brothers (as the Good Samaritan had compassion and cared for the man on the road from Jerusalem). They were believers; those whom the Father predestined to eternal life from the foundation of the world; those who love their brothers. (Matt 10:40-42; 1 John 4:16-17)

He gave His brothers (who had been "last" in the world) the Kingdom in which we dwell today through faith; the Inheritance of eternal life that fills Heaven and Earth. But He sent the “goats” (who had been "first" in the world) into the punishment of the eternal fire. (Matt 22:13; 25:41; Rev 20:10)

Since that Day passsed/passses, the Judgment-Throne of our King remains, and His rule will never end:

"But of the Son He says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.'" (Heb 1:8)

Therefore,

"Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him." (Psa 2:11-12)

Quote:
and how do the attain it, esp gentiles, as they never heard of Christ? - it could not be on their works, nobody is saved by their works and we are told that salvation is only through Christ, for both Jew and gentile ------
By the gospel...that is how they attain it.

Quote:
In Revelation as well as seeing that there are kings and priests there are also nations who are healed --- How I see it is the types in the OT which are shadows of what Christ did and relates to the kings and priests (elect) ministering to the people (called).
They are healed by believing in Him.

Quote:
You say that you are a king and priest and that only kings and priests will be saved but that seems to go against the "type" of the king and priests of Israel ministered to the people, and that it was not just about the king and priests but about the whole nation
Veil of the temple removed.
Now I can access the Holy of Holies, I am a king and priest

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth......And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

I dont deny the above. I accept it.

Quote:
the dividing of soul and spirit by the word of God which is Christ (tormented in the presence of the Lamb)
This is synonomous with Christ and the angels in the winepress analogy. They are judged in the presence of the Lamb. meaning, that the Lamb and the angels, are the ones who are executing judgement.

Rev 19:12-15 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. .....17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Same event as:

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb

Quote:
It seems to me you deny the resurrection of the dead, both the just and unjust -- you only believe in the resurrection of the just.......
I hope I have clarified that the resurrection of the dead, is both just and unjust, and the unjust, are cast into the lake of fire.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 07-06-2010 at 12:34 PM..
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Old 07-06-2010, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Exactly.


Sciotamicks, there is plenty of scripture that shows what you are asking. Saul's conversion to Paul is the model that all will go through. But let us further establish some scriptural facts about the character and purpose of God. First it is important to realize that God doesn't change His mind or His purpose:

Heb 6:17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath.

Pay attention to the bolded words. God's purpose, and the nature of that purpose, are unchanging. God does not change how He acts toward you on the other side of death.

Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

So we see God's purpose and character here - it is preferable to have the wicked turn from his way, and if he does, the LORD will have mercy on him.The question is, will all turn to the LORD?:

Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him,

Furthermore we see God's plan for Christ was to make "the many" righteous - the same "the many" who were made sinners in Adam. This includes the wicked who have died, for otherwise it would not be the same "the many" in Adam.

Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

There is the resurrection (two of them) in which this will happen:

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked

John 5:29 ... those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

So we see there are two resurrections. Interesting note: these resurrections are not based on who chose Christ, but on "those who did good deeds" and "those who committed the evil deeds". But the point for now is that all are resurrected - all rise from the dead. This in itself tells us that all are made alive. For that is what resurrected means - to be made alive (see 1 Cor 15:22-28 where Jesus makes all alive).

But we see the wicked - those who commited evil - go to the resurrection of judgment. What is the purpose of this judgment?

Isaiah 26:9 For when the earth experiences Your judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

Now before someone points to Isa 26:10 and says "look the wicked don't learn righteousness", pay attention to what verse 10 actually says:

Isaiah 26:10 Though the wicked is shown favor,
He does not learn righteousness; ...

Make sure you understand what this is saying. The wicked do not learn righteousness by being shown favor. No. But the wicked (in fact the whole world) do learn righteousness when God's judgements come in the earth, just as verse 9 says.

Like Phaze says above, there is no expiration of salvation at death. People will point to Hebrews 9:27 and say "look its too late after death because then you are judged". While it is true you are judged after death, it is that judgment that will cause you to learn righteousness.

So we see that God's purpose and character never changes. His intent is for all men to be made righteous, and this will happen through Christ, through His judgments. This will be achieved and testified to in due time (1 Tim 2:3-6).

When the wicked turn to the Lord, the Lord will have mercy on them and freely pardon them, just as Isaiah says. For the majority, this will happen after death, in the resurrection of judgment.

I hope you read and understand this sciotamicks.
None of that says anything about the wicked being tormented in the lake of fire, and then reconciled back to God. Nothing.
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