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Old 07-06-2010, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,432,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Everyone (excluding Christ). I thought that was obvious.
NO!

The context is the resurrection of the "dead ones.."...those who have fallen asleep...those who are gripped by THE DEATH. Those in Covenantal relationship with God before Christ! Here is where UR derails terribly.

Death is what keeps them in a state of sleep rather than bringing them into a state of being awake/quickened/made alive. It is not physical death that is in mind here, but the result of physical death: the state of sleep rather than the state of being awake in the presence of God. It is this result of physical death that is the punishment that came as a result of the sin of the Adam. For Paul, sleep is dying.

Catch this: if the present tense is used for those “all” dying in Adam, and physical death is what is meant, then how can Moses, dead over a thousand years, still be dying? It is because he was currently under The Death’s power and sting: the state of sleep (we can see here why the Corinthians were worried about their dead kin because they knew that the Death had not yet been conquered). But, we know that Moses was “alive” soulishly for to God “all is alive.” To be in the state of sleep was to be under the sting of the Death; that is, Moses was soulishly alive, but alive in a state of death/sleep.

What Moses awaited for was to be made alive again by through Christ.
He is part of the ALL. The ALL is a select number of sleepers waiting for their "resurrection of the dead."

This passage has NOTHING to DO WITH THE WICKED.
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:20 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,770,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
NO!

The context is the resurrection of the "dead ones.."...those who have fallen asleep...those who are gripped by THE DEATH. Those in Covenantal relationship with God before Christ! Here is where UR derails terribly.

Death is what keeps them in a state of sleep rather than bringing them into a state of being awake/quickened/made alive. It is not physical death that is in mind here, but the result of physical death: the state of sleep rather than the state of being awake in the presence of God. It is this result of physical death that is the punishment that came as a result of the sin of the Adam. For Paul, sleep is dying.

Catch this: if the present tense is used for those “all” dying in Adam, and physical death is what is meant, then how can Moses, dead over a thousand years, still be dying? It is because he was currently under The Death’s power and sting: the state of sleep (we can see here why the Corinthians were worried about their dead kin because they knew that the Death had not yet been conquered). But, we know that Moses was “alive” soulishly for to God “all is alive.” To be in the state of sleep was to be under the sting of the Death; that is, Moses was soulishly alive, but alive in a state of death/sleep.

What Moses awaited for was to be made alive again by through Christ.
He is part of the ALL. The ALL is a select number of sleepers waiting for their "resurrection of the dead."

This passage has NOTHING to DO WITH THE WICKED.
That is so messed up.
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,432,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Ok I'm honestly confused on what you believe. Are you saying some non-elect are saved?!? Are you saying only those who spread the gospel are elect? Can you clarify the above paragraph... Thanks.
Sure thing. No...I am saying that the elect, the few, the chosen, the many have nothing to do with us, that fall under the Age to Come. We are saints, servants, priests and kings. Remember....Full Preterism.

The elect, chosen, few and many....yes... can still be soteriologically applied to us living in this age, the eternal never ending age, however, these terms were strictly enforced to that of Israel only, under the law of sin and death that resulted from Adam. They are the ALL....awaiting the resurrection....which is not soteriological for us as Christians, but for Israel, was eschatological ONLY in nature. They were already saved soteriologically at the cross.
Their redemption had been consummated at calvary.
As was ours.

Quote:
No your trite comments of "such little you know" is arrogant.
Truce. No more bantering. Pure theology from here on out.
Check me if I get outta hand.
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,432,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
That is so messed up.
Too bad for you, but that is the obvious of the context of the passage.
Read it again. Context, dead ones in Adam.....kin and faithful sleepers.
I dont expect you to grasp it right off the bat. Pater taught that Paul's doctrine was very difficult, even though he supported it fully, but onetheless, was comples to say the least. I didnt grasp it immediately until I studied the language of the text, and realized hey! I need to stay in context and stop UNIVERSALIZING this. It has nothing...I mean nothing...to do with those that have died without God. Nothing!

The differnce is..those that have died in Adam..soul sleep...contrasted with those that die in Christ...no soul sleep.
Christ redeemed the captive saints from Hades. Simple deduction of context and scripture.
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:25 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,770,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Sure thing. No...I am saying that the elect, the few, the chosen, the many have nothing to do with us, that fall under the Age to Come. We are saints, servants, priests and kings. Remember....Full Preterism.

The elect, chosen, few and many....yes... can still be soteriologically applied to us living in this age, the eternal never ending age, however, these terms were strictly enforced to that of Israel only, under the law of sin and death that resulted from Adam. They are the ALL....awaiting the resurrection....which is not soteriological for us as Christians, but for Israel, was eschatological ONLY in nature. They were already saved soteriologically at the cross.
Their redemption had been consummated at calvary.
As was ours.
Imagine passing that down verbally during the many years the NT wasn't written yet.
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:29 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,770,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I need to stay in context and stop UNIVERSALIZING this. It has nothing...I mean nothing...to do with those that have died without God. Nothing!
It sounds to me like you simply made a choice to read it until you came up with a way for it to fit the doctrine you'd already been taught. It seems that you didn't like the way it was worded and had to figure out something else other than the obvious. That's just my opinion of course.
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,432,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
It sounds to me like you simply made a choice to read it until you came up with a way for it to fit the doctrine you'd already been taught. It seems that you didn't like the way it was worded and had to figure out something else other than the obvious. That's just my opinion of course.
Nope...I had the Bible and a few Exegetical lexicons and Concordances by my side, and decided "all" needed to stay in context after much study. I researched my view with my church elders and members, and they supported it. As do millions of others.

To be quite honest, before coming to Preterism, I was leaning toward Universalism in 1 Cor 15....then I got to Rev 21 and Zech 14.
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:36 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,432,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Imagine passing that down verbally during the many years the NT wasn't written yet.
Ask a first century Jew....lol...sorry they're in Heaven.
Or better yet, a Messianic Jew.
Would you like me to locate one for you?
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:39 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,613,061 times
Reputation: 688
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
NO!

The context is the resurrection of the "dead ones.."...those who have fallen asleep...those who are gripped by THE DEATH. Those in Covenantal relationship with God before Christ! Here is where UR derails terribly.

Death is what keeps them in a state of sleep rather than bringing them into a state of being awake/quickened/made alive. It is not physical death that is in mind here, but the result of physical death: the state of sleep rather than the state of being awake in the presence of God. It is this result of physical death that is the punishment that came as a result of the sin of the Adam. For Paul, sleep is dying.

Catch this: if the present tense is used for those “all” dying in Adam, and physical death is what is meant, then how can Moses, dead over a thousand years, still be dying? It is because he was currently under The Death’s power and sting: the state of sleep (we can see here why the Corinthians were worried about their dead kin because they knew that the Death had not yet been conquered). But, we know that Moses was “alive” soulishly for to God “all is alive.” To be in the state of sleep was to be under the sting of the Death; that is, Moses was soulishly alive, but alive in a state of death/sleep.

What Moses awaited for was to be made alive again by through Christ.
He is part of the ALL. The ALL is a select number of sleepers waiting for their "resurrection of the dead."

This passage has NOTHING to DO WITH THE WICKED.
Ok sciota, those are some interesting thoughts you have, but I don't really see how it squares with scripture. I have to concur with BHfT, it is "messed up", and doesn't make sense to me.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

That is the many. EVERYONE. Because death came to all men. It reigned over all who sin. Everyone sins.

I don't see where "present tense" is referring to all dying in Adam. (1 Cor 15:22 maybe?) It is not "present tense", I'm not sure the name of the tense exactly, but I believe it has meaning of "all those who die in Adam", and Romans 5 tells us it is all men.

Your doctrine confuses me sciota.
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:53 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,613,061 times
Reputation: 688
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Sure thing. No...I am saying that the elect, the few, the chosen, the many have nothing to do with us, that fall under the Age to Come. We are saints, servants, priests and kings. Remember....Full Preterism.

The elect, chosen, few and many....yes... can still be soteriologically applied to us living in this age, the eternal never ending age, however, these terms were strictly enforced to that of Israel only, under the law of sin and death that resulted from Adam. They are the ALL....awaiting the resurrection....which is not soteriological for us as Christians, but for Israel, was eschatological ONLY in nature. They were already saved soteriologically at the cross.
Their redemption had been consummated at calvary.
As was ours.
You've lost me. According to your beliefs: Are we believers today elect or not? Did God choose us to be saved (according to your belief)?
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