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Old 07-05-2010, 01:02 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,847,284 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Universalsim is based off the doctrines of men, and those men backed out of their claims. LOL....I know the riches of God are unsearchable. It is UR that proposes that this richness is revealed to them secretly.

Heresy.

Actually if you believe the riches of God are unsearchable you do buy into a doctrine of men and use a falsehood to promote a doctrine and contradict yourself all in one swoop.

You state that the riches of God are unsearchable while claiming to know what God does, you cannot speak of something you cannot find.

If you assert that you get this knowledge from a book called the bible, you further dig your hole. If that is the case, and Gods riches are unsearchable, then you have only found in the bible what YOU want it to say.
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:03 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,562,424 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Universalsim is based off the doctrines of men, and those men backed out of their claims. LOL....I know the riches of God are unsearchable. It is UR that proposes that this richness is revealed to them secretly.

Heresy.

UR is based on the belief in an unconditionally loving God.Nothing more,nothing less.ET is based on a belief in a God who will torture people eternally.Both base their beliefs on Scripture,and both have to deal with explaining away the other sides Scripture.

Which version seems more Christlike?That is the ultimate question,and the ultimate swaying point.

It is no surprise that throughout history those believing in ET have also been the ones committing the most grievious offenses.The Inquisition by the Catholics,the witch burnings,southern conservative evangelicals opposing civil rights,Fred Phelps and that bunch.All of them ET'ers defending the faith.Where is the record of those UR folks committing such offenses against those who disagreed with them?Do you reckon their outlook on God had something to do with each of these folks reactions,both UR and ET?

I once had a guy in a forum such as this say that burning heretics at the stake wasn't such a big deal,because they were going to burn in hell anyway.When you believe that stuff,it opens the door to accepting all kinds of things.
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:04 PM
 
Location: New England
32,323 posts, read 21,173,799 times
Reputation: 2294
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
Ah,good old "loving" christian judgementalism.

I accepted Christ in 1983.Please show me where it is necessary to accept all of Scripture as literal to be a Christian.You are actually guilty of heresy here,as you requirements to the grace of Christ.
Hi lifertexan

It's the good fight of protecting the doctrines of men in action , but for some reason they call it "fighting the good fight of faith".

Never worry about or take offence when you are told you are not a christian or heretic , take it has a compliment , i do.
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,443,373 times
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TO REMIND UR READERS THAT LIKE TO AVOID THE OP

Physical and sentient death: Physical and sentient death entails the cessation of physical and sentient life by the death of the body. Physical death entered when access to the tree of life was taken away. (Gen. 3:22-24) The tree of life sustained man’s mortal existence indefinitely. But, with the withdrawal of access to this tree, physical decay and death set in.

Moral and spiritual death: Moral and spiritual death entail the cessation of moral and spiritual life by the entrance of sin. When sin entered, the image of God in man was lost and defaced; man irrevocably forfeited the inspiration (“neshamah”) that made him a partaker of the divine image and likeness; he became carnal, sold under sin. Adam’s sons and daughters were made in his image and likeness, not God’s, and, hence, were heirs of his “falleness. (Gen. 5:3; Rom. 5:19; 7:14)

Juridical death: Moral and spiritual death brings juridical death. Juridical death is the judgment of God, giving sentence against the sin of man. All men that attain to moral accountability ultimately come under the power of juridical death. When St. Paul states, that “death reigned from Adam to Moses” (Rom. 5:14; cf. 17, 21) he speaks of juridical death. Juridical “death passed upon all men,” because all men violate the law of sin and death. (Rom. 5;12) The wages of sin is eternal death. (Rom. 6:23) When God told Adam “in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” (Gen. 2:17), he spoke of eternal death. The fact man did not die eternally the day he transgressed should not trouble us; “in the day” speaks to the day of transgression, not execution of sentence. Several examples occur in the Old Testament where the identical phrase is used, even though the subject did not die the day he offended. (Cf. I Kings 2:37, 42; Ezek. 32:12-16) The moment man sins he comes under judgment and sentence of eternal death albeit sentence is not executed until he dies physically. Man must first die physically before he can die eternally. If he repents before he suffers physical death, the sentence of eternal death can be vacated and set aside. (Ezek. 18:20-23; 32:12-16)

Hadean Death: Hades is the realm of the physically dead. Hadean death is interposed between physical death and eternal death or eternal life. Without Hades, man would have passed from physical death to eternal death, because the blood of Christ was not available to save them. Hence, God confined the soul of man in Hades until the judgment of the last day.

Eternal Death: Eternal death is the second death or lake of fire (Gehenna). (Rev. 20:11-15; cf. Matt. 10:28) All that do not inherit eternal life suffer eternal death and destruction in the lake of fire.
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:12 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,562,424 times
Reputation: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Hi lifertexan

It's the good fight of protecting the doctrines of men in action , but for some reason they call it "fighting the good fight of faith".

Never worry about or take offence when you are told you are not a christian or heretic , take it has a compliment , i do.

Well,if being labeled identical with them means being in the same place spiritually that those folks are,then I'll accept the judgementalism as proof I am NOT like them.And that is a good thing,it appears..
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:18 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,847,284 times
Reputation: 644
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
TO REMIND UR READERS THAT LIKE TO AVOID THE OP

Physical and sentient death: Physical and sentient death entails the cessation of physical and sentient life by the death of the body. Physical death entered when access to the tree of life was taken away. (Gen. 3:22-24) The tree of life sustained man’s mortal existence indefinitely. But, with the withdrawal of access to this tree, physical decay and death set in.

Moral and spiritual death: Moral and spiritual death entail the cessation of moral and spiritual life by the entrance of sin. When sin entered, the image of God in man was lost and defaced; man irrevocably forfeited the inspiration (“neshamah”) that made him a partaker of the divine image and likeness; he became carnal, sold under sin. Adam’s sons and daughters were made in his image and likeness, not God’s, and, hence, were heirs of his “falleness. (Gen. 5:3; Rom. 5:19; 7:14)

Juridical death: Moral and spiritual death brings juridical death. Juridical death is the judgment of God, giving sentence against the sin of man. All men that attain to moral accountability ultimately come under the power of juridical death. When St. Paul states, that “death reigned from Adam to Moses” (Rom. 5:14; cf. 17, 21) he speaks of juridical death. Juridical “death passed upon all men,” because all men violate the law of sin and death. (Rom. 5;12) The wages of sin is eternal death. (Rom. 6:23) When God told Adam “in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” (Gen. 2:17), he spoke of eternal death. The fact man did not die eternally the day he transgressed should not trouble us; “in the day” speaks to the day of transgression, not execution of sentence. Several examples occur in the Old Testament where the identical phrase is used, even though the subject did not die the day he offended. (Cf. I Kings 2:37, 42; Ezek. 32:12-16) The moment man sins he comes under judgment and sentence of eternal death albeit sentence is not executed until he dies physically. Man must first die physically before he can die eternally. If he repents before he suffers physical death, the sentence of eternal death can be vacated and set aside. (Ezek. 18:20-23; 32:12-16)

Hadean Death: Hades is the realm of the physically dead. Hadean death is interposed between physical death and eternal death or eternal life. Without Hades, man would have passed from physical death to eternal death, because the blood of Christ was not available to save them. Hence, God confined the soul of man in Hades until the judgment of the last day.

Eternal Death: Eternal death is the second death or lake of fire (Gehenna). (Rev. 20:11-15; cf. Matt. 10:28) All that do not inherit eternal life suffer eternal death and destruction in the lake of fire.

I do not think it is being avoided, there is no argument that physical death and spiritual death are two different things.

I believe the problem is you believe that your personal beliefs will save you from spiritual death and they do not.
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:21 PM
 
5,809 posts, read 4,799,453 times
Reputation: 4305
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
UR is based on the belief in an unconditionally loving God.Nothing more,nothing less.ET is based on a belief in a God who will torture people eternally.Both base their beliefs on Scripture,and both have to deal with explaining away the other sides Scripture.

Which version seems more Christlike?That is the ultimate question,and the ultimate swaying point.

It is no surprise that throughout history those believing in ET have also been the ones committing the most grievious offenses.The Inquisition by the Catholics,the witch burnings,southern conservative evangelicals opposing civil rights,Fred Phelps and that bunch.All of them ET'ers defending the faith.Where is the record of those UR folks committing such offenses against those who disagreed with them?Do you reckon their outlook on God had something to do with each of these folks reactions,both UR and ET?

I once had a guy in a forum such as this say that burning heretics at the stake wasn't such a big deal,because they were going to burn in hell anyway.When you believe that stuff,it opens the door to accepting all kinds of things.

Amen.
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,299,007 times
Reputation: 869
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
TO REMIND UR READERS THAT LIKE TO AVOID THE OP

Physical and sentient death: Physical and sentient death entails the cessation of physical and sentient life by the death of the body. Physical death entered when access to the tree of life was taken away. (Gen. 3:22-24) The tree of life sustained man’s mortal existence indefinitely. But, with the withdrawal of access to this tree, physical decay and death set in.

Moral and spiritual death: Moral and spiritual death entail the cessation of moral and spiritual life by the entrance of sin. When sin entered, the image of God in man was lost and defaced; man irrevocably forfeited the inspiration (“neshamah”) that made him a partaker of the divine image and likeness; he became carnal, sold under sin. Adam’s sons and daughters were made in his image and likeness, not God’s, and, hence, were heirs of his “falleness. (Gen. 5:3; Rom. 5:19; 7:14)

Juridical death: Moral and spiritual death brings juridical death. Juridical death is the judgment of God, giving sentence against the sin of man. All men that attain to moral accountability ultimately come under the power of juridical death. When St. Paul states, that “death reigned from Adam to Moses” (Rom. 5:14; cf. 17, 21) he speaks of juridical death. Juridical “death passed upon all men,” because all men violate the law of sin and death. (Rom. 5;12) The wages of sin is eternal death. (Rom. 6:23) When God told Adam “in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” (Gen. 2:17), he spoke of eternal death. The fact man did not die eternally the day he transgressed should not trouble us; “in the day” speaks to the day of transgression, not execution of sentence. Several examples occur in the Old Testament where the identical phrase is used, even though the subject did not die the day he offended. (Cf. I Kings 2:37, 42; Ezek. 32:12-16) The moment man sins he comes under judgment and sentence of eternal death albeit sentence is not executed until he dies physically. Man must first die physically before he can die eternally. If he repents before he suffers physical death, the sentence of eternal death can be vacated and set aside. (Ezek. 18:20-23; 32:12-16)

Hadean Death: Hades is the realm of the physically dead. Hadean death is interposed between physical death and eternal death or eternal life. Without Hades, man would have passed from physical death to eternal death, because the blood of Christ was not available to save them. Hence, God confined the soul of man in Hades until the judgment of the last day.

Eternal Death: Eternal death is the second death or lake of fire (Gehenna). (Rev. 20:11-15; cf. Matt. 10:28) All that do not inherit eternal life suffer eternal death and destruction in the lake of fire.
Where's the Good News in this??? Sounds like BAD news, period!! And talk about depressing!...

Blessings,
brian
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Old 07-05-2010, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
8,427 posts, read 9,178,614 times
Reputation: 13164
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
As I said in another post,one's view of God determines one's view of what the scriptures say about hell,and whether you explain away the verses that say people go to an eternal hell,or whether you explain away the verses that say Christ saves all.People that see God as all loving are forced to find some explanation for the ET verses.Then there are others for whom the idea of a God who would send people to hell forever holds no problems,and these folks seem to have no issues with the idea of an eternal hell for most of mankind.

People can judge for themselves which side is more Christlike and compassionate.
Proverbs 14:12 comes to mind when the judgment of people is invoked.
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Old 07-05-2010, 02:36 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,497,011 times
Reputation: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Your point is?

Malachi 3 (NKJV) "Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming," Says the LORD of hosts. 2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire And like launderer's soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness

Heb 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham.

Sons of Levi...Pharisees.

The expressions of "a refiner’s fire" and "fullers’ soap" are to be interpreted as distinctly judgmental in nature, likewise, the phrases, "And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver." John the Baptist alluded to this reference as the Pharisees approached his baptism of repentance....

Matthew 3:7-8 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

The Pharisees were approaching John’s baptism with hypocrisy and guile, not with true repentance. John was, therefore, admonishing them to prove their repentant hearts by bringing forth fruit in their lives that demonstrated a true humility and sorrow before the living God who was going to bring judgment on their generation through the Roman armies. The Pharisees conducted themselves exactly as was prophesied in Malachi 3:5. This is evident by the frequent references by the Lord Jesus Himself and the N.T. writers: Notice the comparison between Malachi and the N.T. fulfillments and admonishments:

Malachi 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

Malachi 4:1 For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.

Purged Levitical Priestly order of Israel from the wicked only to leave pure gold and silver left.
Remnant as the priests and kings, under the order of Christ....the High Priest.
Paul was one of them. He was from the purified camp. He was as pure as gold and silver. A Chaste Virgin.

In Deut. 28-30 we have the law of blessings and cursing. IF you obey, life will be good. If you break my covenant, I will judge you. Israel broke the covenant as we have seen; and because they broke the covenant, God was going to judge them....

Leviticus 26:25 (NKJV) And I will bring a sword against you that will execute the vengeance of the covenant; when you are gathered together within your cities I will send pestilence among you; and you shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.

There were punitive elements of the Old Covenant which were said to take place at the coming of the Lord in Malachi 3....John the Baptist was the voice opening the way for Christ to do just that....at the cross.....and at His Parousia....the sons of Levi have nothing to do with all men.

You are right! The sons of Levi are the elect. Yes?


We are talking about the second death, which is judgment, are we not???

"For the earnest expectation of the creation waits FOR THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD" (Rom. 8:19). The questions is, why? The creation is in bondage, not WILLINGLY! Made in futility!

Now, onto the second death:


(2 paragraphs below are from: http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html )

OPTION ONE is for the wicked world: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall DIE..." Not only will they die, because "it is appointed to men once to die" (Heb. 9:27).But after they die, they will then come up in the resurrection to judgment, which is the "lake of fire/second death" (Rev. 20:13-14).


OPTION TWO is for God's Elect: "...but if you through the Spirit do mortify [kill, put to death] the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13). Therefore, in the resurrection, "...you shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11). "...and he that has part in the first resurrection on such the second death has no power" (Rev. 20:6).


The ELECT must die a second death, right? Where should we die this second death? Here? On this planet? While in the flesh? Is it by fire? Yes!


"That the trial of your faith [God's Elect], being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ... judgment must begin at the house of God" (I Pet. 1:7 & 4:17).

The second death in the presence of God is a whole other ballgame.

This paragraph from: http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html
We learned that Gehenna fire, and unquenchable fire, and eonian fire, and the furnace of fire, and being salted with fire, and the lake of fire, are all the same fire, and this fire is JUDGMENT. Now then, since the lake of fire is judgment, and the lake of fire "is" also the second death, if follows that the second death also "is" judgment. THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH.

The second death for the elect will not harm them in the presence of the lamb. They have already proven their faithfulness and purity down here. They will reign and JUDGE the angels and the world with Christ.

The world (non-elect, those who did not run the race when they were called, etc) will be harmed by the second death in the presence of the lamb.

"And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth" (Rev. 5:10).

Who are we reigning over?

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html

THE SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD

The called and chosen were born to be Judges:
"Or are you not aware that the saints [the manifested Sons and Daughters of God] shall JUDGE THE WORLD? And if the world shall be judged by YOU, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" (I Cor. 6:2).
"And I saw thrones and they sat upon them, and JUDGMENT was given unto them [the saints, the manifested Sons of God]…" (Rev. 20:4).






Last edited by herefornow; 07-05-2010 at 03:24 PM..
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