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Actually,I was thinking it must be confusing to be a literalist.First they quote all manner of scripture to show salvation by grace.Then they claim that if you don't believe in literal scriptures also then you aren't a Christian,and when I ask for that verse they can't seem to produce it.
But MY question you quoted was within the context of asking someone who says he believes in the Bible literally to then give scriptural support for HIS belief.But then you already knew that before you posted
Scripture? I keep asking for scriptures that support this view, but I have not seen one yet.
Saul (Saul of Tarsus) was destroyed. Paul was the new creation. You know the scriptures. The wicked are destroyed when their wickedness is destroyed. Saul was wicked and will not be entering the Kingdom of Heaven. But Paul will. Two persona's, but one person. The old man in each of us must be destroyed.
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Wrong...eternal is eternal and hell is hell. UR is built from the doctrines of fallacious understanding of Pagan influence in to the scriptures...otherwise known as the Gnostics.
Ummmmm, really? "hell is hell." ... so God is in hell?
Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [GOD] art there.
Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
And here we see that Jonah was in "hell", "forever", that is, until he got out of the fish 3 days later. You know the verses sciotamicks. They have been presented on city-data here time and again. So apparently "forever" in this case only meant 3 days.
There are places in the bible where the word "hell" clearly cannot mean "hell", and there are places in the bible where the words meaning endlessness ie. "forever", "everlasting", "eternal" simply cannot literally mean endlessness. They may mean a long time, or a period of time, as in "that stop light took forever". This draws into question the whole concept of eternal torment...
Yet the scriptures that present universal salvation and reconciliation are crystal clear - no ambiguity. God will have all men to be saved. God is the savior of all men. Jesus is the atonement not only for our sin, but for the sin of the whole world. He takes away all sin. This can only mean salvation for everyone. Of course you don't believe these scriptures and twist them to your own ends.
It is as lifertexan said. You can find two messages in our English bible translations, depending on which verses you use: UR or ET. Yet it is the ET verses that are relying on mistranslation and misinterpretation, and plainly go against the character of our all-loving all-powerful God.
But you don't even think God loves everyone, so your perspective is skewed right from the start. Its amazing that you could possibly think God loves you but not a bunch of other people.
I am very familiar with L Ray Smith...another misguided individual.
He is flat out wrong and has been exegetically usurped on all levels.
Have you read his series on the Lake of Fire then?
"exegetically usurped"?!? LOL, your arrogance is getting the best of you tonight sciotamicks.
First you boldly call yourself a priest and king, then immediately tell someone else they are uneducated for asking a question about your kingship.
And now Ray Smith has been "exegetically usurped"! LOL I'm sure he'd be surprised to hear someone use that phrase... regardless, have you actually read any of his papers?
2 Peter 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. 5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2 Timothy 2
23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
You apparently don't understand 1 Cor 15. Try Romans 5. Here's part of it:
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
I am a Preterist, and although my thoughts in this study reveal this, the themes are still orthodox, and in complete consistency with the Holy Writ. As we are aware, at least those here who study on a regular basis the Holy Scriptures, know that Eschatology is a system of interpreting the latter days, an is not to be confused and infused with salvific soteriology, and therefore has no logical connection to Universalism.
Eschatology can not be separated from Gods plan -- It would seem to me that eschatology should let us know where we are at in Gods plan personally and nationally
The Jews were in error because they did not realise where Gods plan was up to, the foretelling of judgement coming to them in 70AD if they did not repent -- that they were disobedient in deeds and had ignored what Gods message was ----- which is Love God and love your neighbour as yourself and instead had used it to oppress those under them .........
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
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The problem with Universalism rises out of some individuals’ erroneous assumptions concerning the corporate nature of sin and salvation as these in turn are applied to eschatology, but have nothing to do with eschatology itself. It is not Eschatology or Soteriology that should be abandoned, but universal soterioogical eschatology and the notion of imputed Adamic guilt.
The reason why we are condemned is because of Adams guilt, being born human is to be born into condemnation Romans 5:16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
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The law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. It was merely the outward and visible form temporarily added to God’s moral and spiritual law to show man his sinfulness. Removal of the Old Testament took away only the outward form, but left the inward substance of the law wholly in tack. Murder, theft, fornication, and adultery were sinful and reckoned against man before the Mosaic law, and they are sinful today. All men are bound to obey the law’s commands, including the church. When saints sin by violating these commands, heaven sees and is wroth, and will punish that sin, just as it punished Adam’s sin, unless forgiveness is sought and obtained through prayer and repentance. Therefore, annulment of the Mosaic law cannot have brought about man’s regeneration as covenant eschatology supposes, for the simple fact that the moral precepts underlying the Mosaic law remain till this very day, bringing all men into bondage (for all men sin), which bondage is remitted only by the blood of Christ.
Sin was not defeated by annulment of the “old aeon of the law,†but by the cross of Christ. Christ’s cross triumphed over the law and is fully sufficient for man’s salvation; his substitutionary death paid the debt man could not pay. (Col. 2:14) Sin was not defeated because the old aeon of the law passed; just the opposite: the old aeon of the law passed because sin was defeated! Hence, it is was not necessary that the law be removed for sin to be defeated or man to receive spiritual resurrection as Universalists assert. Indeed, as we have seen, except for the ceremonial and other incidental parts, the law still exists in Israel and around the globe today amongst the practitioners of Judaism!
Except for the shadow being replaced by its substance, passage of the Mosaic law was soteriologically irrelevant...it was a school master to bring us to Christ, but was invested with no special power in terms of sin and death that the moral law which exists today does not possess. The only difference between this side of the cross and that is the offer of forgiveness provided in Christ, which the old law foreshadowed, but could not provide. The removal of the Mosaic law did not work a resurrection of any kind or description whatever; its removal did nothing toward acquitting man, or if it did, then Universalism is the only result, for the law was removed for all men, not just the church. The conclusion of the matter is that soteriological eschatology is inherently Universalistic and must be rejected. It is an impoverished system, invented by men and women who have followed its logical ramifications to Universalism, and are now settled in that camp.
Universalism deals with man’s salvation at a corporate, rather than individual, level.
Mankind is saved as a body, not as he individually exercises his moral faculty of faith, repents of sin, and is baptized.
There are five kinds of death that can be identified in the Bible.
1) Moral/spiritual
2) Legal/juridical
3) Physical
4) Hadean
5) Eternal/second death.
All of these exist today except Hadean death according to me, as a Preterist, and should also for futurist, in the future. Moral and spiritual death speak to man’s fallen nature, inherited by physical descent from Adam. Man is not condemned for his carnal nature unless and until he attains to an age moral accountability and obeys his sinful inclinations. There is no such thing as imputed guilt.
Not even Calvin taught imputed guilt.
The idea of imputed Adamic guilt was added later.
Infants…suffer not for another's, but for their own defect. Calvin, Institutes II
Each perishes for his own sin, not the sin of another. Robert L. Danby, Systematic Theology
Legal and juridical death are terms used to describe the sentence of death passed upon all who sin. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. The moral faculty of faith tied to man’s conscience requires that he obey its dictates. Where he acts in violation of his conscience or the command of God, he is guilty of sin and comes under juridical death, just like Adam. Physical death requires no explanation. Eternal death is the penalty for sin announced in the garden. All who are guilty of sin and fail to obtain the salvation that is freely offered in Jesus will suffer the second, eternal death. Only Hadean death was destroyed at the eschaton of the end times.
And the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.†(Matt. 16:18) “I am he that liveth, and was dead, and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of Hades and of death.†(Rev. 1:18) “Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting, O Hades, where is thy victory?†(1 Cor. 15:54, 55)
It was Hadean death that was destroyed at the eschaton, and none else.
Some will ask what about juridical death? Isn't that destroyed at the eschaton? No, it was not. As long as mankind endures, he will be carnal, sold under sin, and therefore subject to juridical death for the sins of his flesh. If he has not obeyed the gospel at the time of physical death, there is only one decree announced: eternal death. Thus, all forms of death but Hadean remain today. Hadean death alone as passed from existence and is no more, or will pass, in the New Heavens and New earth. The place that holds/held the saints captive from eternal life with God, would be forever more vanquished from all levels of existence.
Revelation 21:4 describes the holy city, new Jerusalem (the church) saying: “God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.†This passage is adapted from Isaiah, where it describes the return of the captivity to Judah, but ultimately looks beyond the captivity’s return unto the kingdom of the Messiah. (Isa. 35:9, 10; 65:19-25) When Revelation says there will be no more death, this should not be taken in an absolute sense. This is clear from the fact that it also says there will be no more sorrow, crying, or pain. Since these are still a very real and permanent part of human existence this side of eternity, it seems clear that the statement is intended to be understood in a relative sense. The trials and tribulations of the eschaton were over; death, sorrow, and crying associated with the saints' persecution is past. That this is the intended meaning is also seen from Rev. 7:16, 17 where similar language is used to describe those that came through the great tribulation. It is often assumed that the image is of the saints in heaven, but the consistent view is that it speaks to the church triumphant upon earth:
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. for the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
It is true, of course, that inside the city believers have access to the tree of life and, therefore, there is no more juridical death for those that remain in covenant relation with God. However, those outside, are destined to certain death. The images of the New heavens, New Earth, and New Jerusalem in Revelation chapters 21 and 22 are believed by many to represent man’s heavenly home or the eternal state upon a new material creation. The New Jerusalem symbolically describes the covenantal habitation of the saints under the gospel of Jesus Christ. Under the New Covenant, those who obey the gospel by repentance and baptism are acquitted from sin and made sons of God through Christ. As sons, we have citizenship and inheritance in Heaven. (Eph. 2:19; Col. 3:20) We have been translated in contemplation of law from the dominion of sin to the kingdom of God’s dear Son. (Col. 1:13) We enjoy the legal benefits of adoption and sonship now and are presented legally justified before the throne by and through the agency of Christ. (Eph. 2:5, 6; cross ref. Heb. 9:24) However, we are not actually in Heaven, nor has Heaven come down to earth. Our spiritual life is eternal with Christ and the whole arrangement is legal and contractual, binding and certain as we walk by His light, and at physical death, we are blessed to be the recipients of everything Christ paid for, and we had faith in. Eternal life.
But is is those that are without:
...the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
No Universal Salvation from Death for all mankind.
So it seems to me that you believe that there is only resurrection for believers and non believers are not resurrected and not judged for their deeds both good and bad.
What I see is a disconnect between what you preach - eternal death and no resurrection if there is not a belief in Christ for salvation against those that believe in resurrection for all, both just and unjust and eternal torment for those that do not believe in an "incorruptible" spiritual body. In traditional orthodox thought it is perceived that the believers are good because of what Christ did and the non believers are evil because they are human, ----- Eschatology is important – you seem to think that it is relatively immaterial but what I think it should be used to understand the different "types" and "antitypes", and how all of the ages eons (not eternals) and the life that relates to those eons, ages fit together.
I agree with you that there was no salvation in the Old Covenant for both the Israelites and gentiles -- how many of the gentiles pre Christ have salvation in your opinion? and how do the attain it, esp gentiles, as they never heard of Christ? - it could not be on their works, nobody is saved by their works and we are told that salvation is only through Christ, for both Jew and gentile ------
In Revelation as well as seeing that there are kings and priests there are also nations who are healed --- How I see it is the types in the OT which are shadows of what Christ did and relates to the kings and priests (elect) ministering to the people (called).
You say that you are a king and priest and that only kings and priests will be saved but that seems to go against the "type" of the king and priests of Israel ministered to the people, and that it was not just about the king and priests but about the whole nation ............... the purpose of Christ in the Spirit seems to be as all encompassing as Adam was in the flesh -- all will be baptised into his death ........ and all will be raised those that do not believe and bring forth fruits meet for repentance will be ashamed and will be hurt of the second death at judgment, what I believe is that the judgment is part of resurrection -- the dividing of soul and spirit by the word of God which is Christ (tormented in the presence of the Lamb) There is a rest that believers enter into and they rst from their labours and reminds me of this verse where the dead are blessed when they rest from their labours
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
I agree that we are told that there was no salvation in the OT law it brought us to Christ, it was a "type" and of the flesh ...... All of those prior to Christ were preached the gospel and judged as men in the flesh (dead) (in Adam) and will have life in the Spirit In Christ
I believe that this scripture speaks of that
1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
1Pe 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
Noah was a type, a figure, of Christ being put to death in the flesh and raised in the Spirit, a first fruit, those that were not saved from the wrath were preached the gospel in "prison"
It seems to me you deny the resurrection of the dead, both the just and unjust -- you only believe in the resurrection of the just.......
Show me in the Scripture where it says this.You've been asked twice now.Are you not capable?
I will let you look these up:
Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
And last but definitely not least.....
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
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Ummmmm, really? "hell is hell." ... so God is in hell?
LOL, your arrogance is getting the best of you tonight sciotamicks.
