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Old 07-12-2010, 01:17 AM
 
3,267 posts, read 5,279,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Elect means chosen right? In scripture what is it that the elect are chosen to do? Who was spoken to as the chosen ones?

We always must keep in mind that when Jesus is talking to Peter or Peter is writing a letter to the churches.. these people actually read or heard these words (or similar ones anyway). When Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel," he meant them.. the twelve standing in front of him.


Paul is talking about a specific elect. He isn't being whimsical and including everyone who will ever live... He is talking about the oppression of the Law of sacrificial worship being lifted from the people. The elect had faith and hoped for this just as Abraham did. Keep in mind that Paul is actually communicating to Timothy these things, and Timothy is reading them and acting upon them.

I don't disagree with that necessarily, however.. it is not really just anyone that is spoken of in the bible. It is a specific people and although I think people CAN bring other people to the KNOWLEDGE of salvation... it is also possible that there is no need.

In Paul's day they were preaching and trying to avoid being killed. Saul was a major reason many of the elect died. Paul is preaching to specific people that there are more first fruits of the harvest. I believe he is talking about people that will not suffer in the city during the destruction of Jerusalem. He remains confident that what Christ said would happen.. would happen.

Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.(Acts 9:1)

But Christ says: "This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."

There is no doubt that Paul was part of the elect or the first fruits.

Modern day Christianity is nothing like those first "elect" group chosen by Christ to spread the word. So preaching doesn't really have anything to do with modern day Christians in that sense but research and learning don't require preaching.

No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. (Heb. 8:11)

I hope that makes sense. I tried not to make it too lengthy.
Thanks for replying and answering my questions. You make some very interesting points. But in order to explain my position in detail, I need to go to the original Greek word first, and then elaborate on who I think the elect to be as I interpret it from the bible.

To answer your question, "Elect" in the new testament comes from the greek "eklektos",meaning "picked out,chosen (ek,"from",lego,"to gather,pick out") It is used to refer to the "chosen ones" of GOD,whether they are jew or gentile.

The word is used in Romans 8:33,"who shall lay any thing to the charge of God`s "elect"? It is God that justifieth".

I find it quite interesting here that Paul spends a great deal of time before and after this statement, expressing that there is no difference between jews and gentiles. This is even reinforced in Colossians 3:11-12,"where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore,as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering:"

"Elect" is used in 1 Timothy 5:21 to refer to God`s chosen angels. In Pauls second letter to Timothy, He states "whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles"(1:11), and then in chapter 2, verse 10, "Therefore I endure all things for the elects sake.... The greek word is translated as 'chosen" in 1 Peter 1: 9. In 1 Peter 1:6, "elect" is used to refer to Jesus Christ,...."Behold I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious and He that believeth on Him shall not be confounded."

Some who are pre-tribulationist argue that the "elect" in the Mount Olivet discourse concerning the days of tribulation refers to Israel, "and except those days should be shortened,there should no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened." Mark makes it clear in Mark 13:20 that the elect simply means the chosen ones, "And except the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elects sake, whom He hath chosen,He hath shortened the days." Jesus was speaking prophetically, of a "chosen" people, whose days of tribulation would be cut short at the end of the age.These people had made their "election" sure by the blood of Jesus.

Nowhere in the new testament does the greek, "eklektos" refer to only Israel, and no where in Scripture as you mentioned does Paul mean, imply, or hint that this "elect" are some specific group of first century Christians who are a specific elect just for that time period in history. If anything the elect of that time were used by God to fulfill His purpose just as the "elect" of today are here to fulfill God's purpose as well.

Thus, the elect, which as defined by Scripture, means "chosen, has to do with selection by a sovereign God. It has to do with God separating his chosen "Elect" unto Himself. Also, it has to do with the choice of each Christian who make up the "Elect" through whom God has chosen for His own divine purpose.

Finally, election is totally the work of God alone PERIOD. So, in answering your question about what the elect are chosen to do, we must first understand that election is not a matter of the individual electing God, and then God electing him or her in response. Ephesians 1:4 says: we were chosen, in Christ, before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and with out blame before him. This verse can't be any clearer about who the elect are and why they are chosen. The "Elect" is everyone whom God personally selected to fulfill His purpose past, present, and future, until He is ready to end this system of things.

I hope my concluding paragraph makes some sense. It is after my bed time when I was typing this post. But I will clarify after you respond.

Last edited by antredd; 07-12-2010 at 01:29 AM..
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Old 07-12-2010, 01:19 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,683,107 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Thank you for that, katjonjj.

Only, I believe as children we are to walk in our master's path. I'm not sure if that site is trying to tell us how to become servants. I really don't know. But I do know Christ came as a servant. Lowly. He wasn't scared of his power. He was here to show how the "powerless" can overcome the "powerful" in God's eyes. He showed us that his kingdom was nothing like this world. The rules are different. Many were looking for somebody powerful, but they were disappointed. Why did Jesus come here so weak? Why did he die? What purpose would that serve? Why didn't he overpower Rome and release physical captives? Maybe because he saw that releasing somebody physically does not mean one's spirit will be released.

This next paragraph is from the book, "Jesus for President": Jesus told the disciples that if they wanted to rule in his kingdom, they'd better get ready to wash feet and clean toilets. This king rules with a towel, not a sword. In the kingdom of God, we DESCEND into greatness.

I certainly don't want anybody to get the wrong idea. We don't need to walk around timid and fearful. Not at all. That does not serve a purpose, either, except to make you a perfect target for predators. I just don't think that we all have THE light in us. We have light AROUND us, but until we put ourselves on the back burner, we will not be spreading something beyond us out into the darkness. Christ is the only light that can truly shatter our rebellion and bring us to our senses. Very few even know what that light is. And when people do see it they usually run.

I believe Jesus said that when the lawless one appears he appears in his own name. Jesus came not in his own name but in His fathers. Not MY will but thine. We HAVE to become smaller and smaller to fill up with Him. That makes for a very humble experience.

If we were given a gift, we should use that to glorify a kingdom not of this world. If people are praising us, they are not looking up. While I enjoy the praise of others I sometimes feel uncomfortable. When you are praised you usually need that praise to continue, so you start selling out to receive more and more. Pretty soon your worth revolves around how many people praise and accept you. That can be a frightening scenario.

I am glad that I was given so many gifts, though. I didn't used to be glad. I remember all the filthy rags sermons. If you grow up feeling very small with little worth, then the sermons of old can kill what little spirit you had. On the other hand, the swing of the modern church into "I am a princess" mode seem a little silly, and foolish. When we check our worth against the world, well, the world is fickle. That's probably not a good idea. Checking our worth in our Father's eyes is a better idea. Our we the world's greatest? Do we need to act like we are? Nah. Just a kid in our Father's wild kingdom, easily torn to shreds when we walk off into ourselves (sometimes without even knowing that we have been torn). We should understand that we are not "there" just yet, and keep our pride on the down low. Otherwise, falling down is highly probable.

Entering the Kingdom of God is a sobering and awe-inspiring experience.
The link was more to comply with TOS than an endorsement by any means.. but that said... Great post. Much to ponder.
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Old 07-12-2010, 01:25 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,495,490 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
The link was more to comply with TOS than an endorsement by any means.. but that said... Great post. Much to ponder.
Probably off topic, now that I think about it. I'll save it to notepad.

Sorry, antredd.
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Old 07-12-2010, 01:48 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,683,107 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
Thanks for replying and answering my questions. You make some very interesting points. But in order to explain my position in detail, I need to go to the original Greek word first, and then elaborate on who I think the elect to be as I interpret it from the bible.
You are welcome. Sounds good.

Quote:
To answer your question, "Elect" in the new testament comes from the greek "eklektos",meaning "picked out,chosen (ek,"from",lego,"to gather,pick out") It is used to refer to the "chosen ones" of GOD,whether they are jew or gentile.

The word is used in Romans 8:33,"who shall lay any thing to the charge of God`s "elect"? It is God that justifieth".

I find it quite interesting here that Paul spends a great deal of time before and after this statement, expressing that there is no difference between jews and gentiles. This is even reinforced in Colossians 3:11-12,"where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore,as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering:"
I am with you so far. There is no difference between jews and gentiles, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Quote:
"Elect" is used in 1 Timothy 5:21 to refer to God`s chosen angels.
Angel is really a messenger. It is used quite often to refer to prophets or men of God. So yes.. those angels are elected to do God's will.

Quote:
In Pauls second letter to Timothy, He states "whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles"(1:11), and then in chapter 2, verse 10, "Therefore I endure all things for the elects sake.... The greek word is translated as 'chosen" in 1 Peter 1: 9. In 1 Peter 1:6, "elect" is used to refer to Jesus Christ,...."Behold I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious and He that believeth on Him shall not be confounded."
I disagree a bit. Paul is one of the elect.. the fellow chosen. He is enduring this for the rest of the elect that are anticipated before the end. I don't think we can say that this elect refers to Christ other than him being the first born... I see the first born as Christ. Then come the first fruits... the apostles. Then the whole harvest.. the past, present, and future humans.

Quote:
Some who are pre-tribulationist argue that the "elect" in the Mount Olivet discourse concerning the days of tribulation refers to Israel, "and except those days should be shortened,there should no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened." Mark makes it clear in Mark 13:20 that the elect simply means the chosen ones, "And except the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elects sake, whom He hath chosen,He hath shortened the days." Jesus was speaking prophetically, of a "chosen" people, whose days of tribulation would be cut short at the end of the age.These people had made their "election" sure by the blood of Jesus.
He was speaking about the elect that would spread the word to ultimately save Jews from being in the city when it was destroyed. I don't see how you skipped from a first century view to thousands of years in the future....

Quote:
Nowhere in the new testament does the greek, "eklektos" refer to only Israel, and no where in Scripture as you mentioned does Paul mean, imply, or hint that this "elect" are some specific group of first century Christians who are a specific elect just for that time period in history. If anything the elect of that time were used by God to fulfill His purpose just as the "elect" of today are here to fulfill God's purpose as well.
He doesn't hint that it would be applicable thousands of years in the future so I employ the KISS principle here by reasoning that if there is no indication he means way into the future then why think it. Paul preached to living men and women who heard his words then acted upon them ... why the shift in time here?

Quote:
Thus, the elect, which as defined by Scripture, means "chosen, has to do with selection by a sovereign God. It has to do with God separating his chosen "Elect" unto Himself. Also, it has to do with the choice of each Christian who make up the "Elect" through whom God has chosen for His own divine purpose.
But really doesn't that contradict that God is no respecter of persons?
However, if those that first spread the gospel were the firstfruits... the elect then that would make him no respecter of persons but that the apostles in spreading the word of God gave their lives...

Quote:
Finally, election is totally the work of God alone PERIOD. So, in answering your question about what the elect are chosen to do, we must first understand that election is not a matter of the individual electing God, and then God electing him or her in response. Ephesians 1:4 says: we were chosen, in Christ, before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and with out blame before him. This verse can't be any clearer about who the elect are and why they are chosen. The "Elect" is everyone whom God personally selected to fulfill His purpose past, present, and future, until He is ready to end this system of things.
I understand where you are coming from but there is a problem I have with it. WE... The "we" are real people calling themselves "we" but you overlook that and apply it to a future generation that never had the trials and tribulations that they did in order to spread the gospel that God loves all men and wants them to LOVE one another.

God personally selected ALL he foreknew... Psalm 139.. He foreknew all he created. That is all men. Therefore we can drop this feeling of being above our fellow man and realize that we are all precious in his sight.

Quote:
I hope my concluding paragraph makes some sense. It is after my bed time when I was typing this post. But I will clarify after you respond.
It is after mine too... so I understand. I hope I brought you some clarity as to what I think... I know I understand your position a lot more. Thanks for the great conversation.
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:55 AM
 
Location: Florida
592 posts, read 651,726 times
Reputation: 157
1Peter 1:
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
ELECT
–verb (used with object)
1. to choose or select by vote, as for an office: to elect a mayor.

2. to determine in favor of (a method, course of action, etc.).

3. to pick out; choose: First-year students may elect french, spanish, or German.

4. Theology . (of God) to select for divine mercy or favor, esp. for salvation.



–adjective 6. selected, as for an office, but not yet inducted (usually used in combination following a noun): the governor-elect.

7. select or choice: an elect circle of artists.

8. Theology . chosen by god, esp. for eternal life.


–noun the elect, 9. a person or the persons chosen or worthy to be chosen.

10. Theology . a person or persons chosen by God, esp. for favor or salvation.

All those chosen to be born of God. If God tells the Israelites to take warning, He will also tell the Gentiles. We are all one in Christ.

God Bless,
Mercy
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Old 07-14-2010, 06:59 AM
 
12 posts, read 15,179 times
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EPHESIANS 1V13,AND YOU ALSO BECAME GODs PEOPLE WHEN YOU HEARD THE MESSAGE ,THE GOOD NEWS THAT BROUGHT YOU SALVATION.YOU BELIEVED IN CHRIST,'AND GOD PUT HIS STAMP OF OWNERSHIP ON YOU,BY GIVING YOU THE HOLYSPIRIT HE HAD PROMISED'...........'THE SPIRIT IS THE GUARANTEE THAT WE SHALL RECIEVE WHAT GOD HAS PROMISED' ..............EPHESIANS 1V19,THIS POWER WORKING IN US,IS THE SAME AS THE MIGHTY STRENGTH WHICH HE USED WHEN HE RAISED CHRIST FROM DEATH AND SEATED HIM AT HIS RIGHT SIDE IN THE HEAVENLY WORLD.
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