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Old 07-07-2010, 02:01 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,632,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Christ was already punished for you sin. He took on the punitive decree for that sin. No need for another one. Nice try.
You are still not getting it. The believer needs to made righteous. This is done through a process - trial and judgment by fire. Same process for the unbeliever. Its not about payment.

Quote:
In Spirit yes, I have the blood of Christ on me.
You say you are righteous yet you still sin. Ok, righteous, in spirit. But you still sin. Your carnal man must still die. Your process of refinement of trial and judgment by fire is not done yet. Don't worry, you are not alone. Neither is mine.

This is what the lake of fire is about for the unbeleivers.
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Old 07-07-2010, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,445,219 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Yes, I know. The point of asking this is: if God is just, and if He loves His creatures even more than we are able to love each other, then why would He "obligate" us to be sinners, but being saints is only a "choice?" (And an "act now, supplies are limited!"-type choice, I might add..!)

(Obviously, free will has nothing to do with it, since He could have made us all "saints," and let us choose to fall. But He didn't.)

So what is "holy" or "righteous" or "just" about putting everybody in sin? What is His reason?

Blessings,
brian
No one obligated us to be sinners. ADAM DID THAT FOR US.
We are obligated to respond to the call of God when he calls.

Now back to the OP......do you or do you not believe that there is a corrective punitive experience for the ungodly in a symbolic lake of fire?
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Old 07-07-2010, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,300,932 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
You know nothing of UR's history do you?

No, I am not interested in UR history, just God's Word.

Sciotamicks - Jesus already saved the world, and that world is those who put their faith in Him.
"The world" is only in reference to those who are saved? Wow, this is new..!
What is this interpretation based on? It sounds to me like you have a very "special" Bible..

Peace,
brian
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Old 07-07-2010, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,445,219 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
You are still not getting it. The believer needs to made righteous. This is done through a process - trial and judgment by fire. Same process for the unbeliever. Its not about payment.
No you are not getting. The believer is righteous and sanctified, and through his life, he walk toward sanctification.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Believers don't go to the fire for purification. That was done at baptism.
And that is done as he walks closer to God through his life.

Quote:
You say you are righteous yet you still sin. Ok, righteous, in spirit. But you still sin. Your carnal man must still die.
1 Cor 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Quote:
Your process of refinement of trial and judgment by fire is not done yet.
I know. When I die, it is finished, and I receive my inheritance.

Quote:
This is what the lake of fire is about for the unbeleivers.
No it isn't It is the second death.
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Old 07-07-2010, 02:13 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,632,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
sciota, the point here is that even though Christ paid for the sin of all, believers still sin, still reap what they sow, and still need to be made righteous so they won't sin. Same thing for unbelievers. It is not a double payment for sin as your OP suggests. That is the logical fallacy of your OP.
The point of the OP has nothing to do with what you present. It has everything to do with the reward or penalty of faith and sin in the afterlife.


Good grief....why do you people always try to spin the OP?
Stick with the question.
What are you talking about "spinning the OP"?!? It is very difficult to have a conversation with you sometimes sciotamicks.

From your OP:
Payment cannot be twice demanded by God, first by Christ and then again by those in Hell, purgatory, or some fairy tale lake of fire.

And I am saying you are in error here by saying that the lake of fire is some form of "double payment", as I explained above. This is the fallacy of your OP. The lake of fire is not for "payment"; it is for correction. Just like all of God's judgments. Believers and unbelievers alike both need correction, even though they all will be saved. This is about the 6th time I've explained this now - is it sinking in yet?
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Old 07-07-2010, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,300,932 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
No one obligated us to be sinners. ADAM DID THAT FOR US.
We are obligated to respond to the call of God when he calls.

Now back to the OP......do you or do you not believe that there is a corrective punitive experience for the ungodly in a symbolic lake of fire?
Adam got us in, Jesus Christ got us out. AMEN!! This is why Christ is "the Last ADAM." There is a comparison of Quality here. The first is a TYPE of the second! Praise God!!

Ok.. regarding the OP..
I would imagine that your term "the ungodly" is in reference to a group of people.
I think of the "ungodly" as the dead old man in each of us. "Touch not the unclean thing (not referring to body parts here, as some might have us to believe), and I will receive you." If there is anything unclean, that worketh a lie, it is the carnal old man which died with Christ. Think for a moment on the sheep/goats parable Jesus told. We each have both the sheep and the goat in us.
This is one understanding, and in this POV, the lake of fire is not "punitive." It is destroying what cannot please God.

On the other hand, seeing that all men have been justified by Christ, it could also make sense that those who have not been "chosen" at this time will need more "purifying" or "teaching." Remember the coals of fire heaping on the heads of enemies? How can doing GOOD to someone be like hot coals? No fundamentalist has ever been able to explain this to me.

Blessings,
brian
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Old 07-07-2010, 02:18 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,774,914 times
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Here’s a portion of some nonsense I found on this link regarding Romans 5: Whose Sins Did Christ Bear?

It is a perfect example of why some can’t believe what the scriptures actually say– preconceived notions based on the doctrine they’ve been taught. Look at the red part. They reason that the bible can't possible mean what it says "for not all will be saved." Why couldn't they, instead, believe that all will be saved since that's what the scripture says?
Now turn to Rom. 5: 12–19. Here again we find the words “many” and “all” and at first sight they may appear interchangeable, but this is not so. You will notice that when the apostle speaks of “the one man” in v15 and v19 he also speaks of “the many”, but never “all”; yet when he speaks of “one offence” and “one righteousness” in v18 he speaks of “all men” and not “the many”.

“The many” is in contradistinction to “the one man” and when used there are two companies in view. In each case it is how the action of just one man affected many, each company being linked to its respective head, Christ or Adam. Hence the use of the definite articles in front of “one man” and “many”––“the one man” and “the many”.

Now let us justify the above statements by first considering v19. “For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous”. While it could have been said “all have been constituted sinners” it could not be said, and it is not said, that “all will be constituted righteous”, for all will not be saved. Well then, why does it not say "all have been constituted sinners" and then "many will be constituted righteous"? Because the point being made in this verse is not that Adam's disobedience constituted all men sinners and then through Christ's obedience some of that “all”, some of that same company, will be constituted righteous. If a single company had been in the writer's mind, then “all” would have been used in relation to Adam and “many” in relation to Christ. However Paul uses the “many” in relation to each, proving that two companies are in view, each linked to their respective head. The effect, or end result, of the one man (Adam) was to constitute as sinners the company identified with him as head, while the end result of the obedience of the one man (Christ) is to constitute His associated company righteous.
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Old 07-07-2010, 02:28 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,632,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post

No it isn't It is the second death.
What do you think dies in the second death? THE CARNAL MAN. For believers it dies daily, now, in this life. For unbelievers it dies in the lake of fire.

Read this:
Hell Part E - Hades and the Second Death
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Old 07-07-2010, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Pure nonsense created by sciota and his mentors to twist the doctrine to their preferred exclusivist view by isolating this ONE usage to their unique qualification. There will be a price for this arrogance and deception to maintain the heinous beliefs in a God of human weaknesses (jealousy, anger, vengeance, etc.).Utterly illogical and irrational . . . Crappy try . . . at perverting and blaspheming the true nature of our God with your exclusivist nonsense.
I just study it, I didn't write it. You deny it and impose your thoughts onto it. I read the context, and analyze the grammar, and it is pretty clear who John is speaking of and to. There's isn't enough oil in the room for you to spin this one out.
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Old 07-07-2010, 02:42 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,445,219 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Adam got us in, Jesus Christ got us out. AMEN!! This is why Christ is "the Last ADAM." There is a comparison of Quality here. The first is a TYPE of the second! Praise God!!
Through our confession in Christ yes. We have that victory over what had ailed mankind for so long. But that old man still exists in each and every one of us, until confession, which is only possible in this life.

You can't sow a dead body and receive a new body. In 1 Cor 15, paul is talking about the same body. We put this body to DEATH WITH HIM, and are raised to LIFE WITH HIM.


Quote:
I would imagine that your term "the ungodly" is in reference to a group of people.
Unsaved people that die in their sins.

Quote:
Think for a moment on the sheep/goats parable Jesus told. We each have both the sheep and the goat in us.
Sheep and the goats only refer to Israel, apostate or righteous.
Has nothing to do with gentile believers or unbelievers.

Quote:
This is one understanding, and in this POV, the lake of fire is not "punitive." It is destroying what cannot please God.
Which is the sinner that dies in his sins.

Quote:
On the other hand, seeing that all men have been justified by Christ, it could also make sense that those who have not been "chosen" at this time will need more "purifying" or "teaching." Remember the coals of fire heaping on the heads of enemies? How can doing GOOD to someone be like hot coals? No fundamentalist has ever been able to explain this to me.

Blessings,
brian
This is taken from Pro 25:21, 22 , which without doubt supplied the basis of those lofty precepts on that subject which form the culminating point of the Sermon on the Mount. In so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. As the heaping of "coals of fire" is in the Old Testament the figurative expression of divine vengeance (Psa 140:10 11:6), and Rom 12:21 confirms this in that in all matters of strife and contention those that revenge are the conquered, and those that forgive are the conquerors.
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