No Payment for Sins in a Fairy Tale Lake of Fire (preach, prayer)

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by legoman

.[/i]

And I am saying you are in error here by saying that the lake of fire is some form of "double payment", as I explained above. This is the fallacy of your OP. The lake of fire is not for "payment"; it is for correction. Just like all of God's judgments. Believers and unbelievers alike both need correction, even though they all will be saved. This is about the 6th time I've explained this now - is it sinking in yet?

Correction for unbelievers?
Is not a corrective actiona juridical decree?
The juridical decree was finalized by Christ....It is finished.

No more need for correction. We, believers, are spotless, and there is no need for "correction", for we have already been correctively justified and sanctified by the one perfect offering of Christ. Sinners, that die in their sins, never obtained that sanctification or justification, therefore, their payment for sins is born upon them, forever, in the lake of fire.

Second death. No life.

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by ahigherway

"The world" is only in reference to those who are saved? Wow, this is new..!
What is this interpretation based on? It sounds to me like you have a very "special" Bible..

Peace,
brian

It's called context, something UR should try sometime.

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by legoman

What do you think dies in the second death? THE CARNAL MAN. For believers it dies daily, now, in this life. For unbelievers it dies in the lake of fire.

Liars, thieves, adulterers, sorcerers, etc.
The second death is a spiritual death, since it involves death and hades, bot incorporeal places and states. These are cast into the lake of fire.
Such goes for those outside the city gates.

Dead...eternally and spiritually.

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by legoman

Read this:
Hell Part E - Hades and the Second Death

L. Ray Smith is a false witness. Smith denies the doctrine of the Trinity. This doctrine is one of the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. His writings also evidence a lack of sound scholarly procedure, poor hermeneutics; not providing full – or any – references for works cited, and misrepresenting other people’s views and answering another point than the one made by his opponent. It's called deflection.

John makes it quite clear in the gospel and in his first epistle that we can know we are His. And if we know we are His, is that not salvation and knowing it?

Romans 8:14-16 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba, Father! The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God

Therefore this no longer an condemnation toward those IN Christ. We are not yet perfect, but we are viewed as perfect by God because He now views us through HIS SON, Jesus Christ Who WAS PERFECT.”

God is no foolish parent or lover who sees the objects of His affection as those that can do no wrong. Those truly in Christ (and that is the place all believers are called to) are perfect as He is, even as Jesus commanded us to obtain this position by His grace: “Therefore be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect” (Matthew 5:38).

This is what the Lord also confirmed through the apostle John:

1 John 5:18-20 We know that everyone begotten of God does not sin; but he that was begotten of God keeps himself, and the evil one does not touch him. We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the evil one. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true; and we are in Him that is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Liars, thieves, adulterers, sorcerers, etc.

All are sinners before Christ... even you.

The second death is a spiritual death,

but didn't you just say that all men are already dead... they are born dead?? So the second death is the same as the state they were already in?

since it involves death and hades, bot incorporeal places and states. These are cast into the lake of fire.

I agree.

Such goes for those outside the city gates.

What? The lake of fire? Context?

Dead...eternally and spiritually.

So they start out dead then they remain dead? A continuous state of being doesn't need to be termed "second" does it?

Something is wrong with what you are saying.

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

L. Ray Smith is a false witness. Smith denies the doctrine of the Trinity. This doctrine is one of the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. His writings also evidence a lack of sound scholarly procedure, poor hermeneutics; not providing full – or any – references for works cited, and misrepresenting other people’s views and answering another point than the one made by his opponent. It's called deflection.

John makes it quite clear in the gospel and in his first epistle that we can know we are His. And if we know we are His, is that not salvation and knowing it?

Romans 8:14-16 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba, Father! The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God

Therefore this no longer an condemnation toward those IN Christ. We are not yet perfect, but we are viewed as perfect by God because He now views us through HIS SON, Jesus Christ Who WAS PERFECT.”

God is no foolish parent or lover who sees the objects of His affection as those that can do no wrong. Those truly in Christ (and that is the place all believers are called to) are perfect as He is, even as Jesus commanded us to obtain this position by His grace: “Therefore be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect” (Matthew 5:38).

This is what the Lord also confirmed through the apostle John:

1 John 5:18-20 We know that everyone begotten of God does not sin; but he that was begotten of God keeps himself, and the evil one does not touch him. We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the evil one. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true; and we are in Him that is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black....

[ahigherway]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

This is taken from Pro 25:21, 22 , which without doubt supplied the basis of those lofty precepts on that subject which form the culminating point of the Sermon on the Mount. In so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. As the heaping of "coals of fire" is in the Old Testament the figurative expression of divine vengeance (Psa 140:10 11:6), and Rom 12:21 confirms this in that in all matters of strife and contention those that revenge are the conquered, and those that forgive are the conquerors.

To me, the best part of everything you've written on this thread so far!

Blessings to you,
brian

[Heartsong]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

All are sinners before Christ... even you.
but didn't you just say that all men are already dead... they are born dead?? So the second death is the same as the state they were already in?
I agree.
What? The lake of fire? Context?

So they start out dead then they remain dead? A continuous state of being doesn't need to be termed "second" does it?

Something is wrong with what you are saying.

Well, I hate to get into this thread again because I honestly think some people just enjoy arguing as a pass time, not because they are actually interested in the well being of others.... however, your last post reminded me of the scripture that says OVERCOMERS will not be HURT of the 2nd DEATH which is the LAKE OF FIRE. Jesus spoke of wicked servants who did not take him seriously. I think those wicked servants are believers and that is why he will have to say, "Depart from me, into the lake of fire, I never knew you...." I think that is talking about the judgment that awaits those who have not endeavored to become pure in heart by sincerely following after Christ and taking his words to heart. The wicked servants were found to be beating others! Anyway, carry on....

Heartsong

[Finn_Jarber]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

It's scripture dude.... EVERYONE who loves is born of God and knows God... AND you said there is a condition.. that one must love... but I asked you who you know that doesn't love.... and you have no answer.....

LOVE IS OF GOD.

You can misrepresent what I said all you want... but you still didn't answer the question.

You said that those who do not love are not of God... I agree....

Name a person you know who does not love.

Why are you getting aggressive? I am not misrepresenting anything.

So, are you saying if a person loves someone one time, then he is saved? If Hitler loved his mother when he was a kid, then does that mean God saved him?

If that was the case, then yes, everyone has loved, but if you think that means everyone is saved you are way off the mark.

[Finn_Jarber]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

He would have SAID so .. . . NOT used the obviously more inclusive "World!!" that requires your sophistry and deception to limit to believers.

He did say so. The Bible stresses the requirement of faith almost 200 times.