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Old 07-08-2010, 01:56 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
What? The lake of fire? Context?
What does the scripture say about it?
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Old 07-08-2010, 02:20 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
I agree with some of what you are saying but the second death is still death and Jesus overcomes death.......... You seem to think that there is some death that Jesus does not overcome you seem to be adding words like believer, types, etc into places to make passages fit your doctrines, whether they be calvinistic, preterist, etc.


It is about the seed that is sown


1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

To me you seem to be saying that there is a separation between the flesh and soul and spirit except at times you seem to think that the spirit is dead

What I see in scripture is the body (soma) is the spirit breath of life (pneuma) which animates the flesh (sarx) and produces soul (psuche)

The seed that is sown in corruption is the whole natural (soma) body that we all have in Adam which is corrupt, and unless it all dies it is not raised quickened.........

In Christ is resurrection - there is no resurrection outside of Christ - The second death destroys the natural adamic body....
meerkat,

I commend your diligent study, and you are always open to debate and a change of view. I, at this time in my walk, am not, and I am not open to any view but the one I have adopted in the recent years...Calvinism and Full Preterism. It makes sense, and completes what I always believed to be true.

In regard to your post concerning 1 Cor 15...I can specifically point you to these scriptures:

And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive [it], and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

[It is] like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth: But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for [your] food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness; Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God. For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God. Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for [your] liberal distribution unto them, and unto all [men];

And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace
.

Or saith he [it] altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, [this] is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, [is it] a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? If others be partakers of [this] power over you, [are] not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. ....Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for [it were] better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void. For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel.

I die daily.

And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:

It is fruit of what has been raised from the ground, that we should be concerned with. This is impossible to accomplish when we die biologically.

I can say one thing good about Origen the Universalist, he had this part right.....what is being sown has nothing to do with biological death.
It is sin nature death, and resurrection unto life with Christ, in this life only. Not after some fairy tale lake of fire correction. Once you die biologically, your sin nature is gone...and what is left is your spirit...less any body whatsoever, only to suffer the second death. Precisely why the righteous, WILL NOT be hurt by the second death. They are already raised with Christ.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 07-08-2010 at 02:30 AM..
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Old 07-08-2010, 05:47 AM
 
Location: Frisco, TX
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This isn't hell?

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Old 07-08-2010, 07:21 AM
 
1,079 posts, read 772,525 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
This isn't hell?
Little elmer, hate to break it to you but those 2 little starving kids in the picture, well, their hell has not begun yet. They will also spend eternity in hell because they are not christians.

Hey, I didn't make the rules up. God is holy and just, you keep forgetting that. He can't have heathens in His holy presence.
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Old 07-08-2010, 07:59 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,844,881 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
meerkat,

I commend your diligent study, and you are always open to debate and a change of view. I, at this time in my walk, am not, and I am not open to any view but the one I have adopted in the recent years...Calvinism and Full Preterism. It makes sense, and completes what I always believed to be true.

And here we are similar with the theological stance being different from one another, but the reasoning is the same.

My belief right now completes what I always believed to be true.
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Old 07-08-2010, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Frisco, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7 View Post
Little elmer, hate to break it to you but those 2 little starving kids in the picture, well, their hell has not begun yet. They will also spend eternity in hell because they are not christians.

Hey, I didn't make the rules up. God is holy and just, you keep forgetting that. He can't have heathens in His holy presence.
That's why we know Him as a consuming fire. Christians cry out for Him - at least they're supposed to - but don't realize He's come to destroy with fire the works of darkness in us. I will never believe that God inflicts suffering without a purpose.
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Old 07-08-2010, 08:17 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,295,939 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7 View Post
Little elmer, hate to break it to you but those 2 little starving kids in the picture, well, their hell has not begun yet. They will also spend eternity in hell because they are not christians.

Hey, I didn't make the rules up. God is holy and just, you keep forgetting that. He can't have heathens in His holy presence.
Wow!! That sounds REAL Loving!!!

Peace,
brian
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Old 07-08-2010, 08:24 AM
 
Location: southern california
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the bible gets juggled to come up with some unchristian conclusions. of this i am sure, no amount of scripture manipulation can assure that karma wont occur. jesus can take on ours but some restrictions apply. many are living like they are very sure there is no judgement day nor karma.
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Old 07-08-2010, 09:05 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,428,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
This isn't hell?
John 3:19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God's light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.

..these little babies, and all those like them have not done any evil...they've barely the strength to keep their heads up...much less the strength to stand upon their own two feet........God will not judge these who's "light" is dim, but still is!...moreso, nevertheless, they will be judged upon what light they do have, and in God's eyes...they have more than most...who live fat off the land...they have been given the same portion of light that we all have been given...and God knows their plight...and their suffering...and in Him...in His arms...they will, someday, find their comfort In Him forever...God have mercy...Lord have mercy.
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Old 07-08-2010, 09:33 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,773,394 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
John 3:19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God's light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.

..these little babies, and all those like them have not done any evil...they've barely the strength to keep their heads up...much less the strength to stand upon their own two feet........God will not judge these who's "light" is dim, but still is!...moreso, nevertheless, they will be judged upon what light they do have, and in God's eyes...they have more than most...who live fat off the land...they have been given the same portion of light that we all have been given...and God knows their plight...and their suffering...and in Him...in His arms...they will, someday, find their comfort In Him forever...God have mercy...Lord have mercy.
That's sweet and I agree. Also, God sees us all as little children and understands our spiritual plight and His mercy endures forever.
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