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Old 07-09-2010, 04:57 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
That would be nice if God saw fit to hand us the bible with a verse by verse outline that shows us the future, but He didn't. IMO, He doesn't want us to know all the mysteries or He would have just laid it right out there. This is where faith comes in. Whether you want to admit it or not, there's an enormous amount of scriptures that explain UR, and you even said you considered it once, I believe. On the other hand, there are verses that point to a real hell, but those are symbolism and prophecies IMO, which are open to interpretation.

That's where faith comes in, and leading by the Holy Spirit. You have to decide in your own heart whether you have faith and hope that God is love and that He can and will save all the people He created, or whether you have faith and hope that even though God is love, that "just" and "holy" are in conflict with that, and God will either torture or exterminate most of the people He created. It's not up to me to try to change your mind and it sounds like it's made up anyway. As long as you are at peace with your belief, it's not going to change, and neither is mine because I'm totally at peace with it.

God is not only Love but He is also our Hope, and "hope does not disappoint!"

Psalm 46:1
God is our hope and strength,
a very present help in trouble.

I don't need a verse by verse outline explaining to me what will happen after death. It does not say "People are corrected after death," no more than it says, "People are never forgiven after death." You just have to decide what you believe by seeking Him with your whole heart - not just your head. My faith is in Love and Hope! And not only do I believe God will save all, but I hope it!

Peace to you.
So well said, BrightHopeforTomorrow. That's precisely how I feel about these matters as well.


Heartsong
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Old 07-09-2010, 06:29 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,212 posts, read 34,440,075 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
So well said, BrightHopeforTomorrow. That's precisely how I feel about these matters as well.


Heartsong
All of a sudden all URs agree that Bible does NOT say ""People are corrected after death". Good. Maybe the time spent here has not been in vain after all.
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Old 07-09-2010, 06:59 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,845,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
All of a sudden all URs agree that Bible does NOT say ""People are corrected after death". Good. Maybe the time spent here has not been in vain after all.

There are things that the bible ultimatly adds up to without it having to say the specific words another person demands.

If thats not the case, then the bible easily can be shown to contradict itself.
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Old 07-09-2010, 07:19 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,627,014 times
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Sciotamicks, I posted this in the other thread, and you didn't address any of it other than to say (I paraphrase) "you're wrong and I'm right".

There is plenty of scripture that shows what you are asking. Saul's conversion to Paul is the model that all will go through. But let us further establish some scriptural facts about the character and purpose of God. First it is important to realize that God doesn't change His mind or His purpose:

Heb 6:17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath.

Pay attention to the bolded words. God's purpose, and the nature of that purpose, are unchanging. God does not change how He acts toward you on the other side of death.

Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

So we see God's purpose and character here - it is preferable to have the wicked turn from his way, and if he does, the LORD will have mercy on him.The question is, will all turn to the LORD?:

Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him,

Furthermore we see God's plan for Christ was to make "the many" righteous - the same "the many" who were made sinners in Adam. This includes the wicked who have died, for otherwise it would not be the same "the many" in Adam.

Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

There is the resurrection (two of them) in which this will happen:

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked

John 5:29 ... those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

So we see there are two resurrections. Interesting note: these resurrections are not based on who chose Christ, but on "those who did good deeds" and "those who committed the evil deeds". But the point for now is that all are resurrected - all rise from the dead. This in itself tells us that all are made alive. For that is what resurrected means - to be made alive (see 1 Cor 15:22-28 where Jesus makes all alive).

But we see the wicked - those who commited evil - go to the resurrection of judgment. What is the purpose of this judgment?

Isaiah 26:9 For when the earth experiences Your judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.


Now before someone points to Isa 26:10 and says "look the wicked don't learn righteousness", pay attention to what verse 10 actually says:

Isaiah 26:10 Though the wicked is shown favor,
He does not learn righteousness; ...


Make sure you understand what this is saying. The wicked do not learn righteousness by being shown favor. No. But the wicked (in fact the whole world) do learn righteousness when God's judgements come in the earth, just as verse 9 says.

Like Phaze says above, there is no expiration of salvation at death. People will point to Hebrews 9:27 and say "look its too late after death because then you are judged". While it is true you are judged after death, it is that judgment that will cause you to learn righteousness.

So we see that God's purpose and character never changes. His intent is for all men to be made righteous, and this will happen through Christ, through His judgments. This will be achieved and testified to in due time (1 Tim 2:3-6).

When the wicked turn to the Lord, the Lord will have mercy on them and freely pardon them, just as Isaiah says. For the majority, this will happen after death, in the resurrection of judgment.

Now since God will have all men to be saved, will reconcile all people, will teach all people righteousness through His judgments, then by simple deduction we know the lake of fire is not an eternal torture chamber. The lake of fire is the refining (spiritual) fire that judges, refines and saves the unbelievers. Just as believers are saved "so as by fire".
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Old 07-09-2010, 07:23 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,627,014 times
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I posted this in the "What is hell" thread a few months ago. It is relevant here.

The Refining Fires of God

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Malachi 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap.

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

1 Cor 3
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Rev 20
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So here we see several examples of what the fire of God does.

- It refines like a refiner's fire or like fuller's soap (KJV).
- Peter tells us we will experience fiery trials
- we are told everyone will be "salted" with fire
- God's minister's are like a flame of fire
- even God is called a consuming fire
- God refines people through fire -> they may suffer loss but will be saved by fire

Now does anyone think that any of these references is referring to "hell"? Mark tells us everyone is going to be salted with fire. Does that mean we are all going to "hell"? In 1 Cor 3 Paul tells us that we will be tried in fire, and the fire will manifest our works, and will burn up the works of straw and wood. Is this "hell"? No, no, and no. None of these are references to literal fire, but instead are referring to spiritual fire - God's consuming fire that refines a person into pure gold (not literal gold either, but spiritual gold).

So when we come to Revelations, which is a book filled with symbols, why would you think the lake of fire is now all of a sudden physical literal fire that tortures people forever? Why should we think the lake of fire is "hell"? Look all the examples of what spiritual fire does. It always refines, burning up the bad, and purifying the good. Look at the similarities between Rev 20 and 1 Cor 3:

- Every man is judged, tried, and tested according to his works
- the works are burned up
- they are burned up in spiritual fire

Is God a respector of persons? Does God use spiritual fire to refine true believers, and then turns around and uses fire (physical or spiritual) to burn the unsaved for no other purpose than to torture them forever?

God is a consuming fire who saves.
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Old 07-09-2010, 07:27 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,296,721 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I posted this in the "What is hell" thread a few months ago. It is relevant here.

The Refining Fires of God

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Malachi 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap.

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

1 Cor 3
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Rev 20
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So here we see several examples of what the fire of God does.

- It refines like a refiner's fire or like fuller's soap (KJV).
- Peter tells us we will experience fiery trials
- we are told everyone will be "salted" with fire
- God's minister's are like a flame of fire
- even God is called a consuming fire
- God refines people through fire -> they may suffer loss but will be saved by fire

Now does anyone think that any of these references is referring to "hell"? Mark tells us everyone is going to be salted with fire. Does that mean we are all going to "hell"? In 1 Cor 3 Paul tells us that we will be tried in fire, and the fire will manifest our works, and will burn up the works of straw and wood. Is this "hell"? No, no, and no. None of these are references to literal fire, but instead are referring to spiritual fire - God's consuming fire that refines a person into pure gold (not literal gold either, but spiritual gold).

So when we come to Revelations, which is a book filled with symbols, why would you think the lake of fire is now all of a sudden physical literal fire that tortures people forever? Why should we think the lake of fire is "hell"? Look all the examples of what spiritual fire does. It always refines, burning up the bad, and purifying the good. Look at the similarities between Rev 20 and 1 Cor 3:

- Every man is judged, tried, and tested according to his works
- the works are burned up
- they are burned up in spiritual fire

Is God a respector of persons? Does God use spiritual fire to refine true believers, and then turns around and uses fire (physical or spiritual) to burn the unsaved for no other purpose than to torture them forever?

God is a consuming fire who saves.
Praise God!

blessings,
brian
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Old 07-09-2010, 07:30 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,627,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
All of a sudden all URs agree that Bible does NOT say ""People are corrected after death". Good. Maybe the time spent here has not been in vain after all.
A complete misreading and twisting of words if I ever saw one, and a perfect example of only seeing what you want to see. Go back and read their posts Finn.
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Old 07-09-2010, 07:32 AM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 909,974 times
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Great post, Legoman
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Old 07-09-2010, 07:38 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,212 posts, read 34,440,075 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
God refines people through fire -> they may suffer loss but will be saved by fire
No, not "people", but BELIEVERS who build on foundation of God. He is talking about believers works being tested in fire to see if they deserve a reward, or just eternal life. Eternal life is given to everyone who is a believer, but if your works pleased God, then you can receive rewards. There is no such test for unbelievers, because they receive neither reward, nor eternal life.

You are presenting scriptures completely out of context.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 07-09-2010 at 07:47 AM..
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Old 07-09-2010, 07:45 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,212 posts, read 34,440,075 times
Reputation: 10527
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
A complete misreading and twisting of words if I ever saw one, and a perfect example of only seeing what you want to see. Go back and read their posts Finn.
Here word for word : I don't need a verse by verse outline explaining to me what will happen after death. It does not say "People are corrected after death"

And she is right, the Bible does not say it. Her point is to say that it does not say it, but she has concluded that it is what it means anyway. Will you now quit accusing me of 'twisting' words?

Look at what you just did yourself: you just took verses completely out of context and mixed and matched them with other out of context verses to build your case. Yes, using that method you can have the Bible say whatever you want.
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