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Old 07-07-2010, 03:11 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,438,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
The Bible clearly teaches that only believers can escape Hell. John 3:16 For Gos so loved the world that He gave us His only son ( THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM) will have everlasting life.
Of course!

Quote:
It appears you want to believe that everyone is saved, yet you can only believe this by rejecting the clear teachings of the Scriptures.
Huh? Where did you get that from the OP?...I wonder.....
Quite the opposite.....

No one is saved unless they confess to Christ...in this life.
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Old 07-07-2010, 05:22 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,703 posts, read 1,801,159 times
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Quote:
UR proposes that in the lake of fire, man pays for his sin he committed on earth and will be purified into heaven, a second propitiation and payment by yourself and Christ once again and a second time.
this not what all Biblical universalists propose

see here:

biblical studies: The Lake of Fire

Concordant Expositions (html format) - Concordant Studies

Quote:
Which was Christ's payment for our well deserved death in eternal hell.
this is mambo jambo, in "eternal" hell there is no such thing like death as tradition says - everybody is very much alive, eternal is a philosophical invention, if hell were "eternal" it would have no beginning and no end and would be co-eternal with God, nonsense

Last edited by svenM; 07-07-2010 at 05:33 AM..
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Old 07-07-2010, 05:34 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 12,948,742 times
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Dear sciota, I agree with you that no one pays for their sins in the lake of fire.

You seem to think though that if Christ died only for the elect that therefore the elect will not be disciplined for their sins. This is just not the case.

Look at 1 Corinthians 11:27-32. The Christians who believed Christ died for their sins, were eathing and drinking unworthily concerning the lordly dinner and so were being judged for that sin. Many received a death sentence.

And look at 1 Cor. 3:15: "If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire."

Christ did not die to keep humanity nor christians from needful correction.

No one goes to the lake of fire because they did not believe in Christ. They are judged prior to the lake of fire for their ACTS. They are set right for what they DID. Then, rather than have their dead bodies mess up God's nice new earth He is going to burn up their dead bodies and then He will resurrect them at the consummation of the eons.
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Old 07-07-2010, 05:42 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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The very fact that you can PAY for your sins is proof that once you pay them you can no longer be under a curse of death just as the scriptures show.
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Old 07-07-2010, 06:16 AM
 
Location: Katonah, NY
21,188 posts, read 21,028,633 times
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Can I ask why this is so important to you? There is no sarcasm or insincerity in this question - just so you know. I mean - you believe that all who believe in Christ and accept him as their savior will be saved - right? And the only people going to Hell are those who aren't Christian - right? So - Christianity is right and everyone else will burn in Hell. Well - okay then. So - you get to go to Heaven - and so do all the other Christians on this board. So - why does it matter to you so much? Why all the many, many threads trying to hammer this home? If people don't agree with you - does it matter? You will be going to Heaven. The other Christians will be going to Heaven. If these are your beliefs - I guess I don't understand why it's so important to you to keep trying to get those that don't share the same beliefs to change. We don't all have the same beliefs - but I don't really see anything wrong with that. According to you - I'm going to Hell. But you know what - I'm fine with that. I really am. Because my beliefs tell me otherwise. But I understand that I'm not going to change you - and you aren't going to change me. And I don't think you are going to change the mind of any of the UR's out there either. Isn't it enough for you that you believe what you believe? I guess I just don't understand why you feel the need to keep harping on this. Like I said - I am honestly curious - and I don't mean to offend. It just seems that if you are content in what you believe - that should be all that matters.
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Old 07-07-2010, 06:40 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,724,376 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdrop93 View Post
I guess I just don't understand why you feel the need to keep harping on this. Like I said - I am honestly curious - and I don't mean to offend. It just seems that if you are content in what you believe - that should be all that matters.
Two things -

1. "Evangelizing" is commanded: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature". (Mark 16:15)and

2. Compassion. If you believed all your fellow humans were headed into a horrible eternity if they don't become Christians - how could you NOT harp on your message if you cared about them?

Now - as a universalist I don't carry the #2 burden as my compassion is not driven by fears of eternal hell. But I do burst at the seams a bit to tell the good news of where I believe we came from and where we are headed. Also - I believe that possessing and "living out" agape love is what brings transformation and positive change for both individuals and all mankind so I don't have the obligation to enforce proper doctrines like fundamentalists have.
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Old 07-07-2010, 07:02 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,842,576 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Christ bore the sins of many, not all. The essential issue here concerns the nature of the atonement. Jesus' atonement involved both expiation and propitiation.

Expiation -- Christ removing our sins. He paid for them.
Propitiation -- satisfaction of sin before God.

If Christ bore in His own body on the tree the sins of all men without exception, then none will ever go to Hell.

Payment cannot be twice demanded by God, first by Christ and then again by those in Hell, purgatory, or some fairy tale lake of fire.

People suffer the second death because of their sin, but why would they, if Christ paid their penalty?

For example if you break the law and I go down to the court house and pay your penalty for you -- then you cannot be made to pay it again.

Either Christ paid for your sins or you spend eternity in the second death paying for them yourself.
Payment cannot be demanded of both Christ and you, or the lake of fire and the presence of the Lamb and His Holy Angles.
Payment for sin was expatiated and propitiated by Christ on Calvary.

UR proposes that in the lake of fire, man pays for his sin he committed on earth and will be purified into heaven, a second propitiation and payment by yourself and Christ once again and a second time. This is farther from the truth. I expose this false doctrine again, from another angle, and there are many more angles to choose from, so that the truth can be discerned by all those who frequent this forum of believers, and non-believers alike..

My advice to all those who don't believe, or looking into the faith.

Never trust someone that defies the foundational theme of the gospel as UR does, and that is to believe in this life in order to be saved from the wages of sin and rejection of Christ. Believe in Christ, because your sins were paid for. Do not believe in Christ, and YOU pay for that sin eternally....forever...and ever...and ever...and ever.

There cannot be two payments for sin to inherit eternal life. Only one.
Which was Christ's payment for our well deserved death in eternal hell.

UR lies.



What the poster here is proposing is not about really UR it is the proposition that once you accept Christ continuing to sin is irrelevant.

This is proven by the fact that while the poster hates the teaching of UR he cannot dispute the fact that as believers in Christ we are saved.

However he believes that as saved individuals we can send someone to eternal hell. But, for us individually, that doesn't matter because as saved individuals, christ has paid for all our sins, so we will not personally be held accountable for any souls we send to eternal hell.


The poster here is not fighting against UR as he would like to distract and lead you to believe.

The poster fights against his own accountability. See UR teaches that EVERY person will give account for their lives and judgment given accordingly. The poster thinks that because he is a priest and a chosen one that this does not apply to him.

But it does. UR will teach that being held accountable to a loving God is a great thing, it is ultimatly to the end, good news.

However the poster conflicts in his own spirit because of his doctrine which teaches that if you face God in the after life in accountability you are one of the damned.
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Old 07-07-2010, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,153 posts, read 34,396,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
The Bible clearly teaches that only believers can escape Hell. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave us His only son ( THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM) will have everlasting life.
True, this is the core message of the Bible, and this is repeated almost 200 times in the Bible, so that there would be no misunderstandings about it. Anyone who disregards this message displays wanton disregard for the Bible, and that it the trademark of a false teaching.
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Old 07-07-2010, 07:20 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,766,117 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
What the poster here is proposing is not about really UR it is the proposition that once you accept Christ continuing to sin is irrelevant.

This is proven by the fact that while the poster hates the teaching of UR he cannot dispute the fact that as believers in Christ we are saved.

However he believes that as saved individuals we can send someone to eternal hell. But, for us individually, that doesn't matter because as saved individuals, christ has paid for all our sins, so we will not personally be held accountable for any souls we send to eternal hell.


The poster here is not fighting against UR as he would like to distract and lead you to believe.

The poster fights against his own accountability. See UR teaches that EVERY person will give account for their lives and judgment given accordingly. The poster thinks that because he is a priest and a chosen one that this does not apply to him.

But it does. UR will teach that being held accountable to a loving God is a great thing, it is ultimatly to the end, good news.

However the poster conflicts in his own spirit because of his doctrine which teaches that if you face God in the after life in accountability you are one of the damned.
What this whole set of ideas made me wonder is how is it logical for Sciomaticks to be concerned that we could, by our belief, "send someone to hell via our influence" while also believing in basic Calvinism from what I can tell, as well as believing God is not concerned about those who he already knows in advance will be going to hell???? The lack of logic in all of that boggles the mind. God gave us a brain. I believe he expects us to use them.

Heartsong
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Old 07-07-2010, 07:33 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,842,576 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
The Bible clearly teaches that only believers can escape Hell. John 3:16 For Gos so loved the world that He gave us His only son ( THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM) will have everlasting life.

(Whosoever believes.) It appears you want to believe that everyone is saved, yet you can only believe this by rejecting the clear teachings of the Scriptures.


All will believe as taught in philippians where it says All will Bow AND All will confess "JESUS AS LORD" AND do this to the "GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER"


You can only reject this by rejecting the very scriptures that state it.
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