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Old 07-09-2010, 01:32 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,774,914 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Revelation 21 6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
This fire is symbolic. Unbelieving is ONLY ONE of the reasons to be in the fire!! So, the other categories could include believers! If not, then it could have simply said unbelieving without all the other things.

In other words, who cares if it's an unbelieving coward, or an unbelieving murderer, or an unbelieving pervert, or an unbelieving magician, or an unbelieving idolater, or an unbelieving liar - IF all that counts is if they are unbelieving? This is one reason that some people think that WORKS are a part of the equation of salvation or that you cannot die with unconfessed sin and still go to heaven! Do you actually believe that God is going to torture someone for being a coward even if they are a believer? Or torture someone for lying even though they were a believer?

You and others on this forum who say that all that matters is if you believe, quote this verse like it backs you up, when in fact, it states that there are MANY reasons to go into the fire! It's symbolic!! You reap what you sow!
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Old 07-09-2010, 01:34 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,774,914 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It talks about being born again, and yes, the destination of born again Christians is definetly better than the lake of fire for eternity, which is the destination of unbelievers.
See my post above.
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Old 07-09-2010, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Florida
63,280 posts, read 34,485,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
This fire is symbolic. Unbelieving is ONLY ONE of the reasons to be in the fire!! So, the other categories could include believers!
Yes, unbelief alone will send you to the lake of fire, and no, a believer will not end up there and the Bible makes that CRYSTAL clear. I suppose the Bible could simply state that unbelievers go to the lake of fire, but apparently God included some examples of sinners who will end up there. Why not? It does not say that sexually immoral go here, unbelievers there, and the vile go to some other place. It says they all go to the lake of fire. Unbelief is a one way ticket to the same destination.

No, it is not a symbolic lake of fire.
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Old 07-09-2010, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,691,191 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Yes, unbelief alone will send you to the lake of fire, and no, a believer will not end up there and the Bible makes that CRYSTAL clear. I suppose the Bible could simply state that unbelievers go to the lake of fire, but apparently God included some examples of sinners who will end up there. Why not? It does not say that sexually immoral go here, unbelievers there, and the vile go to some other place. It says they all go to the lake of fire. Unbelief is a one way ticket to the same destination.

No, it is not a symbolic lake of fire.
LOL we've been hearing a lot about sexually immoral BELIEVERS as of late....

Does their belief excuse their sin? Are they safe?
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Old 07-09-2010, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,691,191 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It talks about being born again, and yes, the destination of born again Christians is definetly better than the lake of fire for eternity, which is the destination of unbelievers.
Seems as if you flip flop on what death is in scripture...

What is the first death?

What is the second death?

If people are born dead (as sciota states) then the first death is what? and what does that make the second death?

So here we have you saying:
Quote:
The Bible does talk about aftelife. It says it will occur in heaven where belivers will be like God's own son, or in lake of fire which is the destination for unbelivers:

Revelation 21 6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
How do you figure? Does it say somewhere that when you die you go somewhere other than the unseen grave?

You seem to think that but it isn't supported by scripture... Revelation was written TO THE JEWS, ABOUT the Jews and for the Jews... So just as you say that Isaiah and Ezekiel is about the Jews... same here.

But really... you should clarify for us what you think the first and second death are... then maybe we could find some common ground.
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Old 07-09-2010, 02:28 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
4,285 posts, read 668,696 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Here word for word : I don't need a verse by verse outline explaining to me what will happen after death. It does not say "People are corrected after death"

And she is right, the Bible does not say it. Her point is to say that it does not say it, but she has concluded that it is what it means anyway. Will you now quit accusing me of 'twisting' words?

Look at what you just did yourself: you just took verses completely out of context and mixed and matched them with other out of context verses to build your case. Yes, using that method you can have the Bible say whatever you want.
Exactly Finn ...... that is how a lot of doctrines are made just like the Satan was an angel that fell from heaven is a derived doctrine that is pieced together from a few scriptures taken out of context ...... And also how the doctrine of ET is derived from what Jesus was saying to the Jews about their destruction in 70AD - Scripture is set up so that there are layers of truth to be gained.

I do believe that our hearts are revealed in what we believe about God and his purpose, we will all be judged for our personal beliefs and actions - all our intentions will be judged ........ to whom much is given, much is required
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Old 07-09-2010, 02:43 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
4,285 posts, read 668,696 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Hmmmmm, do you suppose God will literally cut people in pieces? What sort of instrument would he use - a knife, scissors, a machete, all of these? Or might this cutting to pieces actually be a hyperbolic way of saying that men will be completely humbled, no longer able to hide the deepest inner thoughts of their darkened hearts - like being naked, only in a spiritual sense? If God is an invisible Spirit, will he be cutting people's spirits to pieces or physical bodies???

Heartsong
Heartsong

These verses relate to that
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

The instrument I believe is Jesus - He is the way, separating the wicked (the flesh in us) from the good (what is of God, of the Spirit in us)
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Old 07-09-2010, 03:09 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,433,765 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
The Scriptures are full...teaching that the wicked will die...their soul is dead...

...DEAD SOUL!!!!!...AS IN NO! MORE!
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
You've been dead before and know firsthand, eh? Interesting.
No, I read the Bible and understand it..and do my very, very best to live by it.

[quote=Verna]...if they do not receive Jesus into their heart, repent of their sin, stop sinning willfully, become born-again, and changed! - into the character of Christ...walk as He walked, (and He kept the Ten Commandments...AND THE SABBATH!)...that they will NOT! see heaven...for ever more.[/quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
In your humble opinion....

No...God's word...you just don't believe it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna
"Suppose I tell you that wicked people will surely die, but you don't warn them or speak out so that they can change their wicked ways in order to save their lives. Then these wicked people will die because of their sin, but I will hold you responsible for their deaths." Ezekiel 3:18

"But suppose you warn the wicked people, and they don't turn from their wicked ways. Then they will die because of their sin, but you will save yourself." Ezekiel 3:19

"If righteous people turn from living the right way and do wrong, I will make them stumble, and they will die. If you don't warn them, they will die because of their sin, and the right things they did will not be remembered. I will hold you responsible for their deaths." Ezekiel 3:20

"But suppose a righteous person turns away from doing right and he does evil things. He does all the disgusting things that the wicked person did. Will he live? All the right things that he has done will not be remembered because of his unfaithfulness and because of his sin. He will die because of them." Ezekiel 3:24

"When a righteous person turns away from doing right and does evil things, he will die. He will die because of the evil things he has done." Ezekiel 18:26
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
Why don't you ever use the NT? I wonder sometimes about your fanatical use of the archaic musings of men about a God who they clearly (as shown in the NT) did not know...
You're very modern...and you don't believe nor do you know God either...and not that it would make any difference to you...but this isn't for you necessarily...it's for others who are seeking the heart of God and HIS truth...

Here's some New Testament for you...now twist it too...like you always do...

Later Jesus said to them again, "I am going away. You will search for me but will die in your sin. You cannot come where I am going." John 8:21...

..New Testament enough for you...?...or how about this...

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins." John 8:24

...maybe this...?...

For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with human hands, which was only a copy of the true one in heaven. He entered into heaven itself to appear now before God on our behalf. Hebrews 9:24

And he did not enter heaven to offer himself again and again, like the high priest here on earth who enters the Most Holy Place year after year with the blood of an animal. Hebrews 9:25

If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice. Hebrews 9:26...(everything's already been done...now all one has to do is receive it...in THIS!! life!)

[quote=Verna]In Christ's love...In His truth,
Verna.[/quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
Christ's vengeful, self-gratifying love... After all... God's not worried about men as long as they are reverent to him in a certain way....
...this is how you think of Christ...and as far God's blessings that are contengent upon obedience?...yes...you are correct about that....wow...one out of a thousand...not too bad I guess.

In Christ's perfect love...In His perfect truth,
Verna.

Last edited by Verna Perry; 07-09-2010 at 03:22 PM..
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Old 07-09-2010, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Florida
63,280 posts, read 34,485,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
LOL we've been hearing a lot about sexually immoral BELIEVERS as of late....

Does their belief excuse their sin? Are they safe?
Do you know nothing at all about the Bible? Even Satan believes there is God, but that doesn't mean he is saved. You need to study and learn what it means to be born again.
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Old 07-09-2010, 03:31 PM
 
Location: Florida
63,280 posts, read 34,485,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Seems as if you flip flop on what death is in scripture...
No, I have not flip-flopped. But then again, it's not about me, is it?
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